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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 4:10 pm: | 
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Time to realise that Jack was indeed using a coach and horses.
For modern people, the coach and horses is a legendary image of terror, and so modern people dismiss it. But to the Victorians it was simply a method of transport.
The way some people go on, it's as if he'd been given a bann on it, and could be indentifed by the black mark on his bus pass. They won't hear of him not using his feet.
But it's by far the most sensible way for him to get about. Okay, a coach is conspicuous in the East End , but no more than for other Gentlemen, who were careful to be discreet about their presence.
Newspapers at the time of Polly Nicholl's death show that many journalists observed that there were coach marks in the road.
Why would Jack want to roam about, being observed?
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 97
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 1:08 pm: |
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Exactly what sort of coach do you have in mind - a brougham or a landau, a state coach or a barouche? A hackney coach, a hansom or something else? Detail is important.
How many coaches per day do you see going down Buck's Row, Hanbury St or Dorset St?
Do you see Stride as a JtR victim? If so, where was the coach in Berner St?
Did Jack drive himself or have a driver/coachman? If so, we have a conspiracy. How was the coachman kept silent? Do you see the murders taking place inside the coach or not? If inside, who did the clean-up?
Where was the coach kept between times?
Surely, if Jack came from outside the East End, it would be more likely he travelled by train given the proximity of murder scenes to stations (Bucks Row to Whitechapel Station/Mitre Square to Aldgate East).
Finally please find me a single photograph that shows a "carriage" in the East End.
Sorry to ask so many questions, but without substantiation, your comments make no sense to me.
Phil
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
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Hi Joan
Sorry to disabuse you, but there is no evidence whatsoever that the killer used a coach and horses. All the witness descriptions and other indications appear to indicate the killer was on foot. A good indication that no such transport was used in the Nichols murder -- it would have been heard moving along the street. The murders in fact have gained the reputation of having been "silent" murders, as noted by one of the dissertation writers on this site, Rabbi Leen in his essay, "Back to Basics - More Words About Buildings and Mood."
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4031
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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Hi Joan
I fear that the only coach and horses Jack may have used, was a pub.
Robert |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 510
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 10:22 am: |
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Hi Joan,
I found this statement of yours extremely bizarre:
"Why would Jack want to roam about, being observed?"
What do you think is easier to observe:
A) Just another guy walking along the streets at night.
B) A big old coach with horses clomping around.
Think about it for a second here. If you need to visualize this, walk in an alley outside someone's house at night, and then later walk outside the same house on another night slamming two halves of a coconut shell together, jingling bells, and dragging an industrial sized cardboard box behind you. On which night do you suppose the people living in the house would have had their attention drawn to you?
No evidence for any coach was found at any crime scene, and if there had been one near a crime scene it would have been reported. Speculations from a newspaper report that tracks were found is meaningless because newspaper reports were frequently full of complete nonsense and the police reports contradict your story.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1293
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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Hi again Joan
Dan makes a good point about the inaccuracies in the reports on the case in newspapers of the day. The periodical that Dan edits, Ripper Notes, has in its latest issue, no. 21, January 2005, an excellent article by Don Souden on "The Murder in Cartin's Court" -- for such was the name of location where Mary Jane Kelly's corpse found inaccurately reported in the press... and also as Mellow Court, McCarthy's Court, and Dorset Court. Of course, the correct location was 13 Miller's Court, off Dorset Street. But this just illustrates the many inaccuracies in the press reports, to the extent that we can say that overall, except perhaps in the "better" newspapers, e.g., The Times or the Daily Telegraph, newspaper articles on the case are rife with errors. Therefore, in most instances, you should never accept what is said in a press report at face value without additional verification from other sources.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Alex Chisholm
Police Constable
Username: Alex
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 6:31 pm: |
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Hi Chris
While I fully endorse your caution over placing reliance in newspaper reports, as I understand it the “better” papers you refer to often contained as many inaccuracies and dubious stories, if not more than some of the less well thought of ‘rags’
All the Best
alex
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1296
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 8:53 pm: |
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Hi Alex
Thanks for adding that cautionary note, which comes I know from your work on The Daily Telegraph as one of the authors with Messrs. Yost and DiGrazia of the excellent News from Whitechapel, as well as other period newspapers.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 98
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 2:56 am: |
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The key here, is of course, being subjecting ALL source material to rigorous scrutiny.
One of the failings of Ripper studies over the years is a tendency to be UNCRITICAL of evidence, and to accept whatever supports a particular argument. An approach surely unlikely to command much serious respect.
Phil |
Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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Thankyou for all your replies. I really appreciate your interest. My only objection to your arguements is that these murders took place in secluded areas; therefore there was little visibility risk for a coach, perhaps. And of course a great coach has 'intimidation value' to the lower, powerless classes.
I greatly appreciate your taking the time to give me your views.
(From a friend to a friend, be careful though, the BBC are at present out on the hunt for good researchers' ideas!) - see my other thread, which I hope you will find helpful. The Eastenders' cast in 'Jack the Ripper' by the BBC.
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Revd Eric Petrie
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 1:08 pm: |
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To add to the list of stations (Whitechapel & Aldgate East) don't forget the overground Liverpool Street is only a hop and a step away from the centre of Whitechapel I used to go to the Lane (Middlesex St/Petticoat Lane) regularly with my granddad as a child. |
Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 9:15 pm: |
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I wrote today but there was a mistake on my post so it mayn't have got through.
Just to say thanks for the comments people. I will digest them and get back to you later!
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 274
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 9:07 pm: |
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On a side note here..
Whatever happened to Rabbi Leen? Any word on him Chris?
Back to the coach and horses.. I can only agree with what has been said already Joan. Don makes an excellent point in his post.
I truly can't envisage a coach and horses at any of the murder scenes. (Unless the horses had rubber hooves - and the wheels weren't cast iron).
Bestest,
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 429
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
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Lindsey,
Thanks, but since I have not contributed to this thread (until now) I think the credit for "an excellent point" goes to DAN.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 475
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 5:14 am: |
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Hi Joan,
You wrote: "therefore there was little visibility risk for a coach, perhaps."
Perhaps there was, although I doubt it, but like Lyn suggests, there was much audibility risk for a coach. The streets were narrow and the buildings two storeys high or more. The hooves and the wheels would undoubtedly have been heard. For instance, in Stride's case Mrs. Mortimer heard Diemschutz' cart drive by while she was inside her house. But other than this, no such thing was ever reported by anyone in the whole case.
And, if Mary Jane Kelly was a Ripper victim, why didn't the Ripper just dispose of her in the streets somewhere like the others? Why would he have needed to take her back home? Dumping her in the street would have been much easier and less risky. And if he killed her inside of her room, where would he have left the coach, considering it must have taken him longer than just a couple of minutes?
All the best,
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 278
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 10:23 am: |
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Dan..
Sincere apologies for my typo!
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 512
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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No a problem, Lindsey. If I'm going to be confused with someone, Don isn't a bad choice. I'm actually surprised it doesn't happen more often, what with our first names being similar and our last names having the same general theme but opposite directions.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 7:05 am: |
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Audibility risk.
That's a very good point Frank- it seems to me that you've been 'on the scene' so to speak.
Do you think there were extra precautions taken in order to silence the victims? Was it a priority? I am still baffled as to why then he would go to such lengths unless he was an adventurer of some kind- which would go to support Patricia Cornwell's ideas, and/or Shirley Harrison's, (though personally I don't.)
What could he have got from attacking women where there was great audibility and a fairly significant visibility risk?
It is staring to appear as if he were a caperer, a show-off of some kind. Yet I find all that hard to credit. |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 100
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 1:57 pm: |
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I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic at all, Joan.
Jack killed in risky but deserted places, and clearly silenced his victims quickly and effectively, before they could make a sound.
Sure Buck's Row or Mitre square could echo, from something such as a shout or hobnailed boots on a cobbled surface, but I doubt Jack made a sound.
Much more likely that the women led him to sites which they knew to be ill-lit and unfrequented at that time of night. Dont forget they knew those streets and the places where they could do business quickly and (like would-be prisoner of war camp escapees) probably had the beats of the policemen down to a tee.
By the way Joan, are you going to comment on your "coach" theory, stated so confidently above. Given our comments do you still cling to the view that a coach was used?
Phil |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 431
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 8:24 pm: |
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Dan,
Hmmm, I never looked at the last names from that perspective. Add Tom Wescott and find someone named Easton or the like and we've got all directions covered. Despite the name similarities, however, so far I (happily) do not have someone stalking me from one thread to another.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Dustin Gould
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:13 am: |
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A bold claim, with zero substantiation to back it up, leaves much to be desired. Especially when all existing knowledge points to the opposite being true. Travelling by coach would have made hunting impractical, as it would have hindered the Ripper's view, and made socializing with the victims hard (unless he came to a dead stop, every time he saw someone he may have taken in interest in, and called them over). A coach roaming the streets at that hour would easily have drawn attention (thus making it easier to remember later on), as there would have been very few out and about during those hours. To actually perform a murder, the coach would have had to remain idle in the streets for a spell, while the Ripper did his work elsewhere in the alley. Again. This would have attracted attention, and was also not a safe practice, because such would have been fodder for cut throats and carriage robbers (much like parked cars are today). And if necessary, a fleeing Ripper would have a better chance ducking in and out of shadowy alleyways and doorways, then in a large carriage forced to travel on road, in full public view. He'd essentially been limited to outrunning them. Whereas on foot, he could run AND hide.
My humble opinion,
Dustin Gould |
Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 3:04 pm: |
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No, I don't cling to that view.
:-)
When I say 'time to face it' I'm talking to myself as much as anyone.
I am very interested in the details of the crime scene and these never seem to get debated.
The women do seem to do the leading to the points specified. In which case we are looking at the mundane, a man killing prostitutes for the sake of it, because he could.
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1305
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 9:42 am: |
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Hi Joan
You say, "I am very interested in the details of the crime scene and these never seem to get debated."
Obviously, you ARE new to this site. Joan, the details of the crime scenes have been debated in the minutest detail on Stephen Ryder's "Casebook: Jack the Ripper" for many years. You have a lot of catching up to do, Joan.  Buy the excellent "Casebook At Home Edition" CD to read up on the debates from the old message boards as well as what is on the current site. Good luck!
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1306
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 9:47 am: |
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Hi Don
What's the question about the last names? I don't seem to see what you are commenting upon. Can you enlighten us?
Hi Lyn
No word from Rabbi Leen as far as I know for a while, since the old boards folded, although I seem to remember he did resurface briefly not that long ago. Anybody know more? 
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 433
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
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Chris,
Sorry, mainly just a personal aside. Lynn had confused me earlier with Dan and I wrote her that her congratulations on an excellent point belonged to Dan. He then posted that with the first names so similar and the last names (SOUden and NORder) seeming to reflect compass points he was surprised it doesn't happen more often. So, I jocularly suggested we get Tom WEScott and find someone with an EAST in his/her name and we could box the compass. That's all -- not worth the original post and certainly not worth this long explanation.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 518
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:32 pm: |
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Hi Chris and Don,
"Norder" is actually German for "Northerner." "South" in German is "Sueden," and it wouldn't surprise me if that were the origin for the surname Souden. If nothing else it sounds similar.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 435
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
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Dan (and anyone else who might care -- anyone?),
This is getting well off thread, so I'll make it short. Nope, the name is Scots all the way and there are several derivations. In our particular case, family lore has it that my ancestors, after the disbanding of Clan MacGregor, took the name from the area in which they resettled.
And now back to the question: JtR, did he travel by coach or shank's mare?
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1855
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 10:03 am: |
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i thought that the very rich would have used a different kind of prostitute, to those used by the poor? |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 482
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 2:37 pm: |
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Hi Joan,
Unfortunately, I’ve not been ‘on the scene’ (yet). But since I’ve been out here I’ve bought a number of Ripper books and looked at as many contemporary photographs as I could, so that I could get a feel with the area of that time. Furthermore, especially as far as measurements are concerned, I always try to visualise the scenes I read about.
What IMHO drove the Ripper was his anger and hatred of women on the one hand and a curiosity about their bodies on the other, which caused him to kill and mutilate in the end. The mutilations were obviously his main thing, the thing that really satisfied his dark needs. I think killing his victims quickly was not just a priority because of the fact that he did what he did in a densely populated part of town but also (perhaps even mainly) in order to prolong the mutilations and explorations.
Personally, I don’t believe he was an adventurer, caperer, show-off or whatever you might want to call it. I don’t think he sought that kind of thrill. I think his needs just outgrew his fear of being caught, which, by the way, doesn’t mean that he didn’t care enough if he would be caught or not. He may not have had murder on his mind the night he killed his first victim. She may just have triggered him by doing or saying something, whereupon he killed her and started acting out his fantasies without thinking twice.
Whether or not the Ripper took extra precautions to silence his victims, I don’t know. He certainly seems to have strangled Nichols and Chapman. Some think he used some sort of garrotte, although there’s no direct evidence for that. And although I don't think it was common yet in those days, he may have wore rubber soled footwear. Come to think of it, he may have been a shoemaker... Anyway, his murders were obviously surrounded by silence and he got away without attracting attention, which seems to be a sign that he was aware of what he was doing.
All the best,
Frank
"Every disadvantage has its advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 321
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 2:58 pm: |
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Frank, I think you are absolutely right, not only about the noise but about the killer's motivation and thought process.
Mags
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mal x
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 3:54 pm: |
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i very much doubt the ripper used a big fancy coach like in ``from hell``, way too noisy and in such a poor area; it would have stood out like a sore thumb and been noticed by many.
the ripper didn't need transport, he was young and fit and able to escape quickly (Stride and Eddowes), escaping the Stride murder without being seen is very lucky indeed, unless of course; he heard the horse and carriage from a long way off..he probably did.
the only time he would've had to definitely use transport is if you believe he was also responsible for the Torso murders, I.E transporting body parts from A TO B.
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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
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Hello,
thanks for all you care for my enquiries. A site like no other!
When I said people never debated the crime scenes, I meant that they never focused on step by step analasis of the scenes, going through the scenario as if we were the man himself. We seem to leave it out! How did he acheive this? It can't be impossible.
 
Step by step, bit by bit. It can really get the cogwheels whirring.  Look at Dustin's post, above, about how hopeless it would be to stalk someone in a coach. (Thankyou, Dustin.)
I did ask some crucial questions on Jack's taking the organs from the scene on JtR had an agenda thread- but was ignored totally! I would love an answer to those questions. Some forensic advice on that thread would be wonderful. |
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