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Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 32
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:40 pm: | 
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We have left the Polly Nichols murder now and, imagining ourselves in the Met in 1888, naturally turn our mind to whether this killer has struck before.
There were some interesting comments on whether the Buck's Row murder was unusual for Whitechapel in the previous discussion (see "Back to Basics" thread on which discussion is still welcome).
We have two sets of information to review:
a) a number of earlier incidents (subject of this thread);
b) the clearly more controversial issue of the Tabram killing (subject of the next thread).
EARLY VICTIMS (ex Tabram)
We have several cases which might connect;
a) Emma Smith (on Easter Monday) - also a bank Holiday, near the intersection of Osborn St and Brick Lane.
Emma said she has been attacked by a gang of at least 3 men, one a youth.
This is NOT usually seen as a JtR murder.
b) Annie Millwood, in the afternoon of Saturday 25 Feb 1888 in her room at 8 White's Row.
c) Ada Wilson, 9 Maidman St, Burdett Road, Mile End on Wednesday 28 March 1888. [This seems a ittle out of Jack's usual patch.]
In this case, however, there was a description of a man who was chased - about 30, with a sunburned face, fair moustache and about 5'6", wearing a soft felt hat. [this is not wildly different to some of the classic witness descriptions of JtR in later cases.]
So, as investigators, we need to consider,(I think);
i) Should we include any/all of these incidents in our consideration?;
ii) to what extent?
iii) do they tell us anything interesting?
iv) is there a pattern/dates/MO which might inform our investigation?
v) any obvious links to the Nichols killing (ie MO, timings, or other details)?
vi) any other questions?
The only thing that occurs to me is that a gang has been mentioned in association with the Smith murder. The "Hi Rips" are the ones usually mentioned, but another is the "Old Nichol".
The Nichol was a squalid area of the East End, sometimes also referred to as The Jago. For those who think Jack may have left messages could there be anything in the association of names - Polly NICHOLS/Old NICHOL?
As usual, over to you.
[NOTE: I realise that I instituted a thread a few weeks ago on who/how many victims there were. Don't feel you have to repeat yourselves!!]
Phil
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 479
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 9:46 am: |
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A small but potentially very important correction, Phil. In one of Emma's statements she said she was attacked by two men. This goes against the "at least three" idea.
I think all of these potential victims and more should be considered. If you ignore them completely you are making your decisions based upon prior conclusions that may not hold water. From studying other serial killers we know that they often experiment until they get things down to a system that works for them.
I don't think Jack played name games, as that's something more typical of bad fictional serial killers than actual cases. Most of these sorts of things are coincidences that people try to read special meaning into for lack of anything concrete to work on. If he were playing games, this example is a rather unlikely one.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 282
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:08 am: |
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We should note the time of day that these victims were attacked. I can't find an exact time for Wilson but it seems to be not the middle of the night. Millwood was afternoon and Smith shortly after midnight. Thesse differ from the late night/near morning of the later crimes.
And with each murder,as I said on the Nichols thread,we have to eliminate people in the victims life who may be suspects--agrieved family,etc as best we can so that we can say thses are stranger murders.
Mags
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Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 144
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
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Hi all,
OK, here we go for the earlier murders discussion:
"i) Should we include any/all of these incidents in our consideration?;"
In my opinion, yes. I do not believe Annie Millwood or Emma Smith were Ripper victims, but I do believe that Ada Wilson was a victim. I've stated in threads before that to me, Ada Wilson (and Martha Tabram, but that's for the other thread) seem to be the Ripper's work before he started mutilating his victims. I do not believe he could have just jumped out of nowhere and started ripping women to pieces, but rather had a history of violence and more petty crime, before the lead up to the main murders of the "canonical 5."
"ii) to what extent? "
Well, atleast a through re-examination of the evidence, possibly for all 3, but especially for Ada Wilson.
"iii) do they tell us anything interesting?"
If they were Ripper victims, then yes they do. Because then we would know that it was the Ripper in his early days, before his blood lust build up and up. But there of course can't be any proof of this. The space of time between the attacks does some damage to that, since the other 5 were killed quite close together.
"iv) is there a pattern/dates/MO which might inform our investigation?"
No. There was no pattern, no linkage to the number 39, etc. It all seems spontaneous to me.
"v) any obvious links to the Nichols killing (ie MO, timings, or other details)?"
Not as far as I can tell.
But the Nichols murder was the first actual abdominal mutilation murder, which means the Ripper had obviously built up his blood lust enough to do that by the time Polly was killed. It's not the same as the previous murders.
"vi) any other questions?"
Not that I can think of, no.
"The Nichol was a squalid area of the East End, sometimes also referred to as The Jago. For those who think Jack may have left messages could there be anything in the association of names - Polly NICHOLS/Old NICHOL?"
Nichols was and still is quite a common name, and in an environment where it was massively over-populated, it's not hard to believe that it was little more than a coincidence. There was nothing like that in any other case anyway, apart from the apron of Cathy Eddowes', and the GSG. So no, I don't believe there were any clues from the murderer in the case of Polly.
Well, there's my 2 cents on "Back to Basics II."
Regards,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1515
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 12:25 pm: |
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Phil,
Ring off Wilsons, Tabrams and Nichols attacks.
Then throw in Myletts murder later on and the area doesnt seem that much out.
Yeah, I know what you're going to say and I agree. Its just that the first 3 are as close as Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Stride and Kelly.
However, on that alone?....I have doubts. Coupled with the similarity (as you mention) in descriptions of a man at Wilsons attack scene, BFM at Kellys doorway and Packers (albeit dubious) portrait it does interest me slightly.
Add Eddowes alledged statement about knowing Jack and her link with Mile End Workhouse and this area is, IMHO, worth investigating.
Oh how I wish Scott E Medine would appear !!!!
Monty
"I thought we'd agreed, I thought we'd talked it out, Now when I try to speak, She says that I don't care, She says I'm unaware, And now she says I'm weak ."- Joe Barnett
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1675
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 8:02 am: |
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Hi Monty,
I'm so lost!! You think Wilson through Mylett are ripper murders?
Jenni
"So what you think about that now you know how I feel?"
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2908
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 9:34 am: |
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Phil,
i) Should we include any/all of these incidents in our consideration?;
Hard to say. The Ada Wilson incident could be a typical case of those early assaults attempted by a serial killer -- the description of the man also (for what it's worth) corresponds with some of the other sightings of a possible suspect in the Ripper murders.
In my opinion Tabram was murdered by a violent and over-aggressive (and possibly drunk) client, maybe a soldier (or two in collaboration). I don't see it as a result of sexual fantasies of a serial killer, who had the womb as his target in a majority of his killings. She was stabbed 39 times and had no throat cut and showed no attempt of mutilation of her genitalia area, and the attack seems more based on rage rather than twisted sexual fantasies or delusions.
Neither do I consider Millwood a victim of Jack the Ripper, although we can't be sure.
Emma smith was clearly attacked by members of a gang or a couple of ruffians. Maybe it was one of those gangs that targeted and threatened prostitutes -- maybe robbery could also be considered as the motive. We have no reason to doubt her word about this; we also know that gangs operated in the area and it would be natural for them to leave their marks on the local crime statistics.
I clearly see the idea as Jack the Ripper being a member of a gang in his early attempts as rubbish; those types of killers are generally loners and and although we have several examples of serial killers working in pairs (Fred and Rosemary West; the Hillside Stranglers), they usually continue to do so. Emma Smith was without doubt not a Ripper victim.
ii) to what extent?
A difficult question. I'd say every lead and aspect is worth investigating, at least until they prove to be a dead end and waste of time.
iii) do they tell us anything interesting?
It depends on our individual point of view, really. This can't be answered in general terms. If we consider those early offenses as Ripper-related, then that suggests a probable escalating and developing of his technique (which is the popular view). If not, it tells us that there were more killers in Whitechapel in 1888 than what has generally been accepted and that we shouldn't necessarily uncritically attribute every possible victim in the area to Jack the Ripper.
iv) is there a pattern/dates/MO which might inform our investigation?
A pattern to consider could be the bank holidays, weekends and times of day (which is not all that consistent in these early victims). The MO and signature I feel is crucial as pattern of study, but this also leaves much open to personal interpretation of the forensic facts (as have been evident during several discussions here on previous occasions).
Besides that, I feel patterns should be treated with caution as a whole, since they have a tendency to colour the direction and objectivity of an investigation.
v) any obvious links to the Nichols killing (ie MO, timings, or other details)?
No, not in my view.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1517
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
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Jenni
Ok, Im one of those who cannot rule out Wilson. However, I cannot say for certain she was a victim of the man who killed Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Kelly.
Glenn correctly states MO as a factor against and I honestly can see and understand his reasons, and go along with them. The thing is I do not see Wilson as a murder attempt. I see it as an assault. Severe assault granted but not an attempt at killing. This attack was committed by a extremely dangerous individual who does seem to be capable of murder, who matches at least one possible description (maybe two) and who obviously owns a knife. Yeah, doesn’t mean we have a Jack attack granted but this kind of assault should be checked, just to see if any similar attacks happened in Mile End around that time.
As for Mylett, lots of problem for me that one. Old issues that have been discussed before. I need more to include her but I wholeheartedly disagree with Andersons views that no one else was involved.
What I am trying to say is that there is evidence, albeit slight, that points to Mile End. Apart from suggestions made in my previous post we also have the fact that Eddowes killer was moving in that general direction during his possible escape.
Monty
"I thought we'd agreed, I thought we'd talked it out, Now when I try to speak, She says that I don't care, She says I'm unaware, And now she says I'm weak ."- Joe Barnett
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2909
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:23 am: |
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Hi Monty, my man,
"Glenn correctly states MO as a factor against and I honestly can see and understand his reasons, and go along with them. The thing is I do not see Wilson as a murder attempt. I see it as an assault."
I absolutely agree and I hope that also was came through in my post.
A lot of serial killers have started out with this kind of assaults (mostly connected with robbery), so therefore I am not prepared to rule him out completely. I think the assault was serious enough in order to kill (or he just was indifferent to whether he killed her or not), since the stabs was directed to the throat -- which generally may turns out lethal, and in Wilson's case it nearly did. So it could very well be a murder attempt, although not necessarily a planned one -- robbery was probably the main goal in my opinion. So this is a tricky one. But at the same time this is a behaviour that in many ways corroborate with how many serial killers have started out, especially as I find the description of the man interesting.
Still, I would leave a lot of question marks. We can only speculate.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 20, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2911
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:48 am: |
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What a terrible English grammar in my post above. Sorry about that.
I must be more thorough in my proof-reading...
All the best
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1677
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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Monty,
i see where you are coming from.
I feel the need to reread some books (the list of things i need to do grows again!)
Ok i see what you are saying,
Cheers thanks for explaining,
Jenni
ps Glenn there is terrible english grammar in many of my posts. often i don't even realise it. you have an excuse so dont even worry!
"What d'you think about that? Now you know how I feel"
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1518
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
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Glenn,
Yes, yes, absolutely.
You're coming through loud and clear so dont worry.
I think we are in agreement when we state that Wilsons attacker was a very dangerous man.
That said, and as you both cautiously and correctly state, pure spectulation with regards to Jack.
Monty
PS Jenn, I could comment......but I wont !
"I thought we'd agreed, I thought we'd talked it out, Now when I try to speak, She says that I don't care, She says I'm unaware, And now she says I'm weak ."- Joe Barnett
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1678
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 12:11 pm: |
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Monty, Glenn,
speculatation, what isn't!
I think the attack on Wilson is very interesting in terms of what you guys are saying.
I guess it's just scary to think there might have been more than one dangerous attacker on the loose at once?
Jenni
ps Monty, you better tell me later privately i don't like your tone!
"What d'you think about that? Now you know how I feel"
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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 445
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
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Hi all,
Here are my views.
On the one hand I believe Jack committed crimes similar to the attacks on Annie Millwood and Ada Wilson prior to the Nichols murder. Possibly, perhaps even probably, he can be found in the police files of those days. On the other hand I think we mustn’t forget that the East End was the poorest district in London, causing people to live on the edge. Especially the alcohol abuse coming with the territory may have caused violent behaviour that was not exclusive for Jack the Ripper. As probably the majority of men was walking around carrying a knife, any of those men, especially when under the influence of alcohol, may have committed any of these knife attacks.
I think Jack the Ripper was probably a loner. A lack of self-confidence, or mental problems, probably both, may slowly have restrained him from interfering much with other people. I see the Ripper as able to converse with people, but only on a superficial level and only when he had no other option. I don’t think the Ripper cared much for the outside world, as he may have seen it. This is why – like Glenn - I don’t believe Jack the Ripper was a member of the trio (or duo) that attacked Emma Smith.
As for Annie Millwood, the attack on her fits my idea of the kind of attacks an early Ripper would have carried out. She was attacked by a complete stranger in the heart of the Ripper’s hunting zone, without a cause, without witnesses, and she was stabbed a number of times in the legs and lower torso - something I find especially interesting in the Ripper context. Unlike what I think is the general view, I don’t think that the attacks on Millwood and Tabram are necessarily connected.
Although I’m far from sure that they actually mean something, I see some interesting connections between Ada Wilson’s case and three of the others.
The first is that, like Tabram, Wilson was stabbed in the throat. The second is that, although it was on the other side of it and about a mile further east, like Nichols, Wilson was attacked within a hundred yards from Whitechapel/Mile End Road. The third is that Wilson’s attacker, like the man seen by Sarah Lewis outside Miller’s Court, wore a wideawake, a hat that I’ve only stumbled upon twice in the whole of the Ripper case. Furthermore, George Hutchinson’s trip to Romford and back along Mile End/Whitechapel Road is interesting in this respect. I’m not implying anything here, I’m just saying these are interesting links. I’m sure you’ll react if you think I’m utterly wrong.
All the best,
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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