|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1114
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 5:55 pm: |       |
It seems odd that no information whatever has come down to us on these three[except that one became so mentally ill he ended up in an asylum in 1882.
The information on the other two has vanished without trace and yet "there was a good deal of gossip in circulation about one of the medical students".As Paul Begg states in JtR The Facts
"not a tittle of that gossip has reached us.......over the years case papers have been lost,destroyed stolen and "gone missing",and even documents known to have been in the files twenty years ago have now disappeared",
Well we know from his own admission that Machnaghten destroyed files on Druitt.I wonder whether in fact Druitt might have been one of the students they suspected since he has been so often referred to as a doctor?Maybe as someone said once he actually did study medicine in that mystery year just after coming down from Oxford.Or maybe the student they were most concerned about was somebody else entirely.Whoever it was the police were very concerned about.quoting from the above book again"The files tell us very little indeedand,if our ignorance about the three suspected medical students is anything to go by,they almost certainly contained information that we dont even suspect."......and he then asks"What there was about this young man that could have
warranted"a good deal of gossip"at a fairly high level of the home office.
I have often thought the hospital was somehow involved-its only minutes from the murder site of Polly Nichols,dirctly facing the alleyway of Woods Buildings that leads to what used to be Bucks Row.
But ofcourse it could just be coincidence!
Natalie |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 220
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 12:19 pm: | |
Hi Natalie.
Yes, I suspect the few files that we do have represent a small portion of the masses of paperwork that originally existed on this case.
All the witness statements, all the suspect interviews, police notebooks. The results of the door-to-door search conducted in October, the thousands of statements taken from each resident.
Police reassignments and the results of meetings and liason's between the City force and the Met. force. All the communications between the Home Office and the Met. Police, letters from citizens, professional people & interested parties, not to mention the loss of the entire City Police files & documents in the war.
We have lost so much the mind boggles at original size of the documentation that must have initially existed.
Are you familiar with the research done by Nick Warren & Jon Ogan?, some of what we know was condensed into the JtR, A-Z (Begg, Fido & Skinner), but it focuses entirely on the 3rd man John William Smith Sanders (A-Z, p 382, 3rd ed).
I can share with you what Jon Ogan very kindly provided me with some years ago.
--------------
by Jon Ogan
Preface:
The following article is not produced in an attempt to establish any form of 'guilt against the subject. Instead it is written to give some insight into the background of an initial Police suspect as the investigation unfolded.
The case of John William Smith Sanders (JWSS) has been intriguing due to JWSS's insanity, medical and medical knowledge, and the Police investigation into his whereabouts at the time of the murders. Four criteria which ostensibly makes Sanders a viable suspect.
Initial Police inquiries indicated that JWSS had been living at 20 Aberdeen Place (sic), but had since left the country. Insp. Abberline's report (1st Nov 1888) stated:
"Searching enquiries were made by an officer at Aberdeen Place, St John's Wood, the last knoM1 address of the insane medical student named John Sanders. But the only information that could be obtained was that a lady named Sanders resided with her son at No 20, but left there to go abroad about 2 years ago. " 1
The original file copy revealed that the officer was Sgt. Froest. 2
In fad, JVVSS resided at No 20 Abercorn Place, Maida Vale. Presumably the name of the street had been misread during the process of copying out the longhand report, although a check of Kelly's Street Directories ~Is that the inhabitants at Aberdeen Place varied each year. So it is possible that someone named Sanders/ Saunders may have been a tenant. 3
A similar check of the inhabitants of No 20 Abercorn Place reveal that JWSS's mother was Laura J. Sanders (occasionally spelt Saunders), residing at that address continually until 1894. The rate books show that she took residence in 1878, subsequently moving into 55 Hartham Street in Holloway. The last entry for L. Sanders was in 1895. 4 Much of JWSS's past is now well documented. The salient points are as follows:
JWSS enrolled at the London Hospital, Whitechapel on 22nd April 1879. III health caused his withdrawal in 1881.5 Paul Begg discovered a faint annotation along-side JWSS's name stating: "Away with Dr Swete for several months in 1882". Begg also discovered that the doctor was Superintendent of the Royal West of England Sanatorium. 6
JWSS's final years were apparently spent in a number of institutions until his demise in Exeter Lunatic Asylum, Heavitree on 31 March 1901, 7 although his death certificate states 1st April 1901. 8 However, it is the intervening years that are most important, especially the autumnal months of 1888.
JWSS's records at Exeter Lunatic Asylum described his illness as a "prolonged attack -14 years duration. Has been at West Mailing for 3 years and Virginia Water for 9 years." Both establishments were for the 'Genteel Insane'. West MaIling was West Mailing Place in Sander's home county of Kent, and was opened in the later half of the 18th century by a Dr. Perfect.
Extant records at County Hall, Maidstone, only cover the Hospital Committee 1907-46. Individual patient records do not remain. 9 The Gazetteer for 1874 described the establishment as 'a picturesque and healthy locality combining cheerfulness and refinement.' 10 However, the Commissioners in Lunacy (1899) felt compelled to report it's 'unfavourable general condition', but saw I improvement the following year. 11
'West Mailing Place has now become St Leonard's Rest Home for elderly persons. The present owners informed me that there are no surviving records for the period in question. They did, however, kindly offer to pass on my enquiry to the former owner's son, who has since emigrated to South Africa. Unfortunately, after a number of years, there has been no response. 12 .
Virginia Water asylum was the Holloway Sanatorium at Egham, sponsored by the philanthropist, Thomas Holloway. It was built to cater for the less prosperous middle classes. Originally, it was believed that Sanders was in Virginia Water in 1888, but extant records at the Surrey Record Office veal that he was admitted into Holloway on 12th June 1889. His previous place of abode was given ; West Mailing. However, the remaining records are incomplete and do not provide a full account : his medical condition, merely stating that his 'dementia' was due to 'overwork' and his body condition was 'spare'. It was also noted that he was free from any disease. 13
Nick Warren noted that JWSS was listed as being from Glasgow in the 1891 Census for the Sanitarium's patients. If this entry is correct then JWSS must have been a resident in Glasgow at sometime between his being 'away with Dr. Swete' and his incarceration at Egham. 14 His death certificate at the Exeter Lunatic Asylum further noted a widely travelled patient and recorded that NSS was a 'medical student from Barnsley'. JWSS's father, Henry S. Sanders, was an Army Surgeon. A glance at the 1881 Census for the Sanders family at Abercorn Place shows the transient 3ture of Army personnel. One child was born in Manchester, one at sea, four in Kent, and one in London. 15
Incidentally, Henry Sanders shot himself on Mt Aboo (Aka Abu), India, in 1867. The burial certificate stated that at this point, he was 'temporarily insane'. 16 While the family travelled extensively, there , no mention of Glasgow or Barnsley. The mystery of the Barnsley connection may lie with the DCtors attending JWSS. An examination of JWSS's medical certificate, first issued 8th February 1887 , shows that it was signed by Drs J.W. Scarth and A.E. Switzer. The latter hailed from Ireland, but obviously had been local to JWSS to be able to co-sign the medical certificate. Dr. Scarth, however, was a resident of Leeds, at Woodhouse Hall, and had been surgeon to the First West Riding Artillery 17 The Kelly's Street Directory for Leeds in 1888 gave the more specific location of 207, Woodhouse Lane. 18 There were no asylums in the Barnsley area, the nearest being the South Yorkshire Asylum at Wadsley and the Stanley Royd Asylum at Wakefield. 19 Possibly JWSS had been a patient under the care of the two doctors, rather than at Barnsley itself? The same might be considered regarding the Glasgow address. Past records of Glasgow asylums are now in the care f the University of Glasgow Archives Department.
Only one private asylum existed for the period in question: the Royal Glasgow Asylum (now Gartnavel Hospital). The Archivist, Mr Tough, checked the annual registers, but could find no trace of any John Sanders/Saunders, but added that as these were compiled annually, Sanders could have been resident for a few months without appearing on the register 20 A more comprehensive search of the ay books may turn up the fact that he was treated in the private asylum. It would seem inconceivable hat JWSS would have been placed in a pauper asylum, bearing in mind the rigid class system endemic in Victorian Britain. A hypothesis supported by the fact that JWSS was later placed in two private asylums at West Mailing and Egham.
Neither west MaIling Place nor Holloway had been noted for catering for violent patients. However the case notes at the Exeter Lunatic Asylum indicated that JWSS was capable of displaying~ violence. The medical certificate issued 8th February 1887 showed that he was subject to attacks of violence, unprovoked assaults, and exercised tyranny over the household. Previously he had been described as being shy and retiring. 21 Although lacking in detail, these episodes of violence punctuated with quiet, passive interludes may have been due to a schizophrenic condition.
Further evidence 'against' JWSS may be seen in the ambiguously worded note in the Home Office files. The note queried the progress in searching for the three insane medical students: 'M' Murdoch. Please see Mr Wortley's pencil memo on sir C Warren ('s?) letter? Shall the Police be asked at the same time for report as to what has become of the 3rd insane medical student from the London Hosp? About whom (under the name Dr - ) there is a good deal of gossip under circulation.' The annotation was initialled W.B. Although undated, the dates of previous, unrelated jottings indicates that it was written on, or after, 27th October 1888. 22
Despite these glimpses into JWSS's social and medical history condition, the missing records a Maidstone meant that a full comparison between the dates of the murders and his incarceration could not be made. However, recent research by Phil Sugden showed that JWSS was at leas present in West Mailing Place in both February 1888 and 1889 at the time of compiling the annual registers for lunacy. 23 This would seemingly remove John William Smith Sanders as a viable suspect. Whether the police themselves were able to eliminate him from their enquiries we shall never know, as the MEPO files became considerably slimmer in content regarding the subsequent discovery, and investigation, of the Miller's Court murder.
*********
Notes and sources
1. MEPO files 31140- Abberline's report to the Home Office.
2. File copy of the same document, with alterations to Sgt Froest's name.
3. Researcher's notes from Kelly's Street Directory.
4. Letter from Marylebone Library to researcher dated 24th August 1987.
5. Letter to researcher from London Hospital (Jonathan Pepler) dated 3rd September 1985.
6. Paul Begg. Jack the Ripper: The Uncensored Facts Robson, 1988.
7. Letter from County Archivist (M. Rowe) to researcher 24th Apri11989.
8. JWSS's death certificate obtained from St Catherine's House.
9. Letters from Centre of Kentish Studies (D. Gibson) to researcher 1Oth/17th Feb 1993.
10. Green's Gazetteer for Kent, 1874 Photocopy supplied by E. Bolton, West MaIling Library, 2nd June 1989.
11. Commissioner's in Lunacy Report to Parliament 1899.
12. Telephone conversation with current proprietors.
13. Letters from Surrey County Archivists (R. Simonson & J. Pooley) to researcher 2nd/12th Feb 1993.
14. Nick Warren -The Asylum at Ascot: Ripperana (July 1992) & Sickert's Student and the Ripper.
15. Letter from Marylebone Library (R. Bowden) to researcher 16th September 1986.
16. Letter and copy of Burial Certificate from British Library (India Office) to researcher 6th July 1987
17. Medical Directories 1887-89.
18. Kelly's Street Directory for Leeds 1888 Information kindly supplied by Leeds University Library (P. S. Morr1sh) to researcher 19th March 1993
19. Letter from Archivist, Barnsley Library, (R. Vyse) to researcher 18th November 1992.
20. Letter from Archivist, University of Glasgow (A. Tough) to researcher 2nd November 1992.
21 Letter from Administrator, Wonford House (G. Meredith) 16th November 1990
22. Note appended to Home Office File 144/2201A49301 C.
23. Letter from Philip Sugden to researcher July 1993.
---------------
Regards, Jon |
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 485
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 12:36 pm: | |
Jon
Thanks for posting that interesting account.
One minor correction - the place in Kent is called West Malling, not West Mailing, I think.
Chris Phillips
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1115
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 4:51 pm: | |
Hi Jon,Many thanks for posting this information.Although it seems to point away from involvement in Whitechapel in 1888 it at least enables us to know by name and partial medical record one of the three.
Best Wishes Natalie |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 655
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 5:16 pm: | |
Natalie
I've been trying to find a time for a while to make an appointment to go and look, there is a file in the archives of the London Hospital which contains a letter from Edward Knight Larkins in which he apparently accuses one of their students of being the Ripper. I'm not sure if he mentions the student by name, but it's definitely worth going and taking a look at when I get the opportunity!
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise." |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1117
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 5:50 pm: | |
Hi Alan,Thanks for letting me know this.I think I will try to get over there myself and have a look.I was there on Thursday afternoon buying paints and what not and could have called in to make an appointment at the hospital.IT may be another few weeks as I"m really busy at the moment
but I will definitely try to go and post any information on this thread. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1378
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 10:31 am: | |
Hi all
This account might be of incidental interest in that it concerns a young man posing as a medical student from the London Hospital and confessing to the Eddowes murder. It is from The Times:
4 October 1888
POLICE
At the Guildhall, William Bull, 27, was charged on his own confession with having committed the murder in Mitre square, Aldgate. Inspector George Izzard said at 20 minutes to 11 on Tuesday night the prisoner came into the charge room at Bishopsgate Police Station and made the following statement:-
"William Bull, No 6 Stannard road, Dalston. I am a medical student at the London Hospital. I wish to give myself up for the murder in Aldgate on Saturday night last or Sunday morning. About 2, I think, I met the woman in Aldgate. I went with her up a narrow street, not far from the main road. I gave her half a crown. While walking along together a second man came up, and he took the half crown from her." The prisoner than said, "My poor head. I shall go mad. I have done it. I must put up with it." The inspector then said to him, " What has become of your clothing that you had on when you committed the murder?" He replied, "If you wish to know, they are in the Lea, and the knife I threw away." At this point he declined to say anything more. He was drunk. Inquiries had been made at the London Hospital. No such person as the prisoner was known there. He was out of employment. The prisoner's parents appeared to be most respectable people. His father stated that the accused was at home on Saturday night. The prisoner: I said this when I was mad drunk. I never committed a murder; I could not commit such an act. The magistrate: I shall remand you; and you have yourself to thank for the position you are in. The prisoner was then removed to the cells.
|
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 10:39 am: | |
Oddly Bull apears to have given his correct address. Here is the family record from 1881:
Wm.T.H. BULL Head M Male 46 Middlesex, England Commerl Clerk
Louisa BULL Wife M Female 40 Middlesex, England
William BULL Son U Male 19 Middlesex, England Collar Warehouseman
Robert W. GRACE Boarder U Male 19 Wakefield, York, England Commerl Clerk Tea
Charles W. GRACE Boarder U Male 16 Wakefield, York, England Student
James G. WEIGHT Boarder U Male 21 Islington, Middlesex, England Solicitors Clerk
Dwelling 6 Stannard Rd
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341064
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0298 / 82
Page Number 40
|
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1380
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 12:10 pm: | |
In the post from Jon Smyth the following interested me:
Paul Begg discovered a faint annotation along-side JWSS's name stating: "Away with Dr Swete for several months in 1882". Begg also discovered that the doctor was Superintendent of the Royal West of England Sanatorium.
In the 1881 there was only one medic that I can find with this unusual surname:
Edward H. SWETE Head M Male 56 Westbury, Gloucester, England Physician
Sarah A. SWETE Wife M Female 50 Alveston, Gloucester, England
Edith M. SWETE Dau U Female 23 Wormington, Somerset, England
Oswald R. SWETE Son U Male 17 Wormington Weston Super Mare, Somerset, England Student Edward L. SWETE Son U Male 15 Weston Super Mare Chelsea, Somerset, England
Minnie A. SWETE Dau U Female 11 Weston Super Mare
Mary BAILEY Mother In Law U Female 73 Chelsea, Middlesex, England
Baker BAKER Boarder U Male 40 St Pauls Bristol
Charles D.Blor GREEN Boarder U Male 19 Dinmore, Hereford, England
Hugh Hy. SWETE Son U Male 9 Leamington, Warwick, England
Emma DAVIS Cook U Female 19 Clearwell, Gloucester, England Domestic
Annie TARPLEY Domestic U Female 23 Charlton, Worcester, England Domestic
William SAUNDERS Page U Male 14 Castle Frome, Hereford, England Domestic
Source Information:
Dwelling Rainbow Hill
Census Place Claines, Worcester, England
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 2932 / 126
Page Number 98
There was also another younger man of the same surname who in 1881 was a medical student:
Jeanne OLDERSHALD Head U Female 45 Bullwell, Nottingham, England Glass And Fancy Dealer
Emma OLDERSHALD Sister U Female 43 Bullwell, Nottingham, England Asstnt To Glass And Fancy Dealer
Emma JENNER Visitor U Female 17 Gravesend, Kent, England Milliner
Horace L. SWETE Lodger U Male 19 Wrington, Somerset, England Medical Student
Source Information:
Dwelling Virginia Ho Kingston Hill
Census Place Kingston On Thames, Surrey, England
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0832 / 70
Page Number 37
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1123
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 3:16 pm: | |
Thanks Chris for the above.It may help at some future time as well when we may know more about these three medical students one of whom caused so much gossip at the time in high places.
Best Natalie |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1440
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 5:42 am: | |
G'day,
Four years ago Dusty Miller, (who worked for Australia's 'A Current Affair' T.V. programe), contributed to 'Ripperoo' an article he wrote titled: 'New Suspect Walter Thomas Porriott'. The article appeared in issue 3 and if anyone wants to read it I can maybe send it to Stephen to place on Casebook.
Dusty wrote: 'This man was better known to police of the time as the criminal Andrew John Gibson. Porriott had many aliases, which suggests he was in hiding from authority'.
Dusty listed some of the man's thousands of aliases as:
'DOCTOR Ebenezer McKay,
DOCTOR Harry Westwood Cooper,
DOCTOR Boyd,
SURGEON Commander Swinton,
DOCTOR Harry Cecil Darling,
DOCTOR Harry Cecil Rutherford Darling,
Charles Ernest Chadwick (Student?).
Because Porriott died at the age of 82 in 1952, he was born in 1870 and would have been just 18 years old in 1888.
Porriott hated women and was in England during the time of the Ripper murders. He sailed to Australia on the 9th of November 1888. He was jailed for theft on many occasions in England, Australia, California and South Africa. He was sentenced for manslaughter in 1940 for killing a pregnant woman after posing as a gynecologist.
All this was revealed after research by his great-great-grandson steve Wilson, and a story first appeared in 'The Bulletin' magazine in 1997.
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3012
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 8:34 am: | |
Hi Leanne
That would be a very interesting article to read.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1127
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:01 am: | |
Yes thanks for posting the info Leanne
Natalie |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1443
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 5:18 am: | |
G'day,
I have begun re-typing Dusty's story onto 'Microsoft Word' so that Stephen can put it here under 'Ripperoo Issue 3'.
LEANNE
Q: DID YOU HEAR THE ONE ABOUT THE CRIMINAL CONTORTIONIST?
a: HE TURNED HIMSELF IN!
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3024
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 6:06 am: | |
Thanks Leanne.
PS Do you have any trouble when you transfer microsoft word documents into email boxes? With mine, I paste it onto the email box, everything's OK, I post it, and THEN when I look at "posts sent" I find that dashes ( - ) and quotes ( " ) have all been miraculously converted into question marks! ( ? ) 
Plus, lines are split up like this
with
one stupid word on one line and then
the
normal number of words on the next.
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1444
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 6:43 am: | |
G'day Robert,
Check out 'Microsoft Office Online', and ask them any questions you have.
LEANNE
Q: When is a match not a match?
A: When it's alight!
|
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 589
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 11:12 am: | |
Q: When is a match not a match?
A: When it's alight!
Doesn't work in America, Leanne. Our matches are never alight, they are always burning! 
Andy S. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 8:39 am: | |
G'day,
I wondered why I didn't hear any laughs!!!
LEANNE |
Scott Suttar
Inspector
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 162
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 3:06 am: | |
Sorry if i'm a complete burke, but in Chris Scott's post above does the name of the suspect appear as a servant in Doctor Swete's household?
If he had been a servant of the good Doctor for several years it might explain why he was off travelling with him.
Scotty. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1396
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 6:11 am: | |
Hi Scotty
There is an intriguing similarity of name. The suspect was John William Smith Sanders (or Saunders). In 1881 the young male servant (described as a "page") in Swete's household was listed as William Saunders, aged 14. However, the one item which shows that this is not the same person is that John William Saunders enrolled as a medical student in 1879, at which point the William Saunders listed in Swete's household would have been only 12. At most he could have been a male relative of the suspect, possibly a younger brother.
Chris
|
Scott Suttar
Inspector
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 164
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 11:52 pm: | |
Thanks for that Chris, didn't look carefully at the dates. Interesting coincidence nonetheless.
Scotty. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3098
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 7:07 pm: | |
It's probably nothing, but the "Times" for Feb 8th 1892 has this item :
Robert |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 269
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:28 pm: | |
Robert.
I think the person you hi-lited was called, "John Edmund Sanders Passore" (that last word is hard to read)
Notice that after each name the writer placed a comma, ie;
Sidney Richard Nicholls,
Walter Wingfield Nuttall,
There is no comma after 'Sanders' therefore I suspect it was a middle name.
Nice try though,...do you agree?
Regards, Jon |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3099
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 6:41 am: | |
You're right, Jon, it's "Passmore" (blame my atrocious mouse manipulation).
Anyway, here's a couple more :
MAY 30th 1879
JUNE 14th 1884
Robert |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 329
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:12 am: | |
If Sanders was taking Anatomy and Physiology it could explain why he went berserk!  |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 274
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:37 am: | |
Yep!, you got him this time Robert.
Good stuff.
Where are you getting these from, Colindale?
Jon |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3100
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:24 pm: | |
Hi Jon
No, the "Times" is online at the moment at
http://trials.gale.com/pubacd/
Username : pubacd17
Password : durable
But it's due to stop on Sept 30th. They may pull the plug before then, so if you want to do any searching, you haven't much time left.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1172
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 4:54 pm: | |
Thanks for these Robert.Nothing turning up over any other familiar names so far? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3104
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 5:12 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
I'm annoyed about what the "Times" doesn't seem to have covered - no Druitt inquest, no Supt Cutbush inquest, no Abberline obit, no Langham obit, no Phillips obit....or maybe I'm a lousy searcher! 
I did find something about John "Punch him up the chancel" McCarthy on the Shades of Whitechapel thread.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1412
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 11:49 am: | |
Hi Rob
Strangely there are two mentions of Phillips's widow - maybe because of the great age she lived to
11 July 1939:
News In Brief
Mrs. Eliza Phillips, of Holden Road, Finchley, celebrates her 101st birthday today. She is the widow of Dr. G. Bagster Phillips, who was a medical officer to the Metropolitan Police for many years.
27 March 1940
Deaths:
Phillips: On March 25m 1940, at St. John's Home, Clewer, Eliza Phillips, of 25 Holden Road, Finchley, widow of Dr. G. Bagster Phillips, of Spital Square, E.C., in her 102nd year. Requiem Mass 10 a.m., St. Alban's, Holborn; funeral service at Clewer Parish Church at 1.45 tomorrow (Thursday).
|
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 73
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 2:51 am: | |
Hi Chris,
Your finds never cease to amaze me! Are there any census listings for Dr. Phillips? I used my limited search resources, but no luck.
Nina |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3114
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 1:53 pm: | |
Nina, here's the death announcement. After that, there seems to be no mention in the "times" which is a bit sad considering he served the police for 30 years or so.
Nov 2nd 1897
While searching for Dr Phillips I found this, which I might as well post.
Mar 6th 1882
Robert |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 76
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 1:08 am: | |
Hi Robert,
Thank you for that. Yes it is sad, only three lines.
Nina |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 314
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 7:03 am: | |
Mary Ann Macarthy, eh? Wasn't that one of the rumored real names for MJK? 17 years old in '82 would be 23 or 24 the end of '88. Attacking some guy in the face with a knife...
Bizarre.
Not making any conclusions, just thinking out loud about how whacky this case can be sometimes...
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3119
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 7:54 am: | |
Hi Dan
There's a report of a Jeremiah McCarthy living in Pennington St, also of a Jeremiah, John, and Michael McCarthy attacking a man in Dorset St. I can't help wondering....on the other hand, there were a lot of McCarthies around.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1176
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 4:32 pm: | |
I wonder could Henry Connor be traced?You never know...this Mary Ann might just be someone who changed her name to Mary Jane.And as Dan points towards---being slashed in the face with a knife might cause long term resentments!
As far as the Macarthy bit goes I remember people on this site talking about John Macarthy"s role
saying that there were one or two bits and pieces about John Macarthy and his wife that didnt quite add up for example they allowed Mary great leeway with her rent arrears when they otherwise had a reputation for collecting it in advance or rather each day.John Macarthy encouraged the police to break the door in of Millers Ct yet one would have thought he would have had a key---or known how to get hold of one so was he hiding something like Mary being a relative of his?He and his wife are both buried yards from Mary-odd-!
It could be the same Mary-its possible. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3121
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 4:49 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
It's so tantalising. I've found a McCarthy (or was it Carthy?) born in Glamorganshire who was the curate to a Belgian Catholic priest in the Midlands. Then there was the John McCarthy who was charged with stealing sheet music...If we exhumed Kelly and McCarthy DNA might give us the answer. I'll make the tea while you dig.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1418
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 6:19 pm: | |
An odd conjunction of names here... a Mary Kelly and a medic named John William Saunders!
The Times
11 January 1881
John Harwood, 24, described as a general dealer, was brought up for final examination, charged with feloniously cutting and wounding Catherine Herring by stabbing her on the chest, arm, and eye with a knife, with intent to do her some grievous bodily harm. Mr. Pollard prosecuted on behalf of the Public Prosecutor; Mr. Ody appeared for the prisoner. The complainant said she lived at 6 Metcalfe court, Bermondsey. She knew the prisoner as living in the same court. On Saturday afternoon, the 1st, she was with Mary Ann Kelly in a public house in London street, Dockhead, when the prisoner came in and abused her. Afterwards he struck her on the eye. She saw he had an open knife in his hand, and called out, "Take the knife from him." He then struck her on the chest and right arm. She was taken to Guy's Hospital. In answer to Mr. Slade, the witness said that the prisoner was not sober at the time. She had never quarrelled with him before. Mary Ann Kelly corroborated her testimony, and added that as soon as she saw the knife in his hand she ran to fetch a constable. Mr. John William Saunders, house surgeon, Guy's Hospital, said he found three clean cuts - one on the chest, one over the eye, and another on the left arm. No doubt they had been done with a knife. Mr. Slade committed the prisoner for trial.
|
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 289
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 12:03 pm: | |
Hi Natalie:
"John Macarthy encouraged the police to break the door in of Millers Ct yet one ..."
Superintendent Arnold, the Head of 'H' Division, didn't need any encouragement from John MacCarthy, sorry, I just had to smile.
And Chris just shows us there's no such thing as a 'simple case' of murder...
Regards, Jon |
Hilary Everitt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 8:36 pm: | |
The Dr Swete in the census was my uncle Dr.Edward Horatio Walker Swete MD DPH 1825-1912. The medical student at the other address was his son Dr Horatio Lawton Swete JP LRCP 1861-1901. His sister Minnie was also an MD. Dr Edward (Horace) Swete was the founder of the cottage hospital systems. The family lived in Wrington, Somerset. Westbury, Gloucester. Worcester and Seaton, Devon. They travelled quite a lot and owned land in Cork,Ireland. His half brother was the well known Rev.Dr.Henry Barclay Swete Regius Professor of divinity University of Cambridge. Their father was Rev. Dr. John Swete of Bristol and Cork. I have been enjoying this board for the last 3 hours, dinner was late. |
Kerrie Edwards
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 1:17 pm: | |
I came across this message board when I did a search on Andrew John Gibson (alias Dr Darling) ... um ... excuse my ignorance ... but ... what has Andrew John Gibson (alias Dr Darling, etc) have to do with Jack The Ripper ?!?!?
PS ... I am a descendant of Andrew John Gibson and as I'm doing the family history (off and on, mostly off lately) I am curious to say the least !!! |
Kerrie Edwards
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 2:12 am: | |
Attn: Leanne Perry
I have been researching my families genealogy off and on over the years ... I just happened to do a search using "Google" today and came across this site when I searched for the name "Andrew John Gibson" ... I am related to Andrew John Gibson ... and ... as with Steve Wilson, who you mentioned in your post above, I am also a great great grand child of Andrew John Gibson ... I am curious to know why his information is included on a site dedicated to "Jack The Ripper" ... may I ask why ??? ... I have copies of four (4) articles written about him in the Daily Mirror (1954), the Sun (1978), the Daily Mirror (1985) and the Daily Telegraph Mirror (1991) ... I also believe a story was written about him in a magazine which, I believe, is no longer in print called "Parade", however, I do not have a copy of this article ... I did not know that there had been an article written about him in "The Bulletin" in 1997 and would love to get my hands on a copy ... if you wish you can email me at clanndee@hotmail.com ... hope to hear from you soon !!!
Regards,
Kerrie Edwards. |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
