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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 607
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 1:50 pm: | 
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In another thread, David O'Flaherty said he was interested by the pagentry of the British State Opening of Parliament. This is for him.
The basis of the State Opening is that in the UK law can only be made by the three estates of the realm, Sovereign, Lords and Commons coming together. This happens at the State Opening when the Queen's Speech from the Throne sets out the Government's (the Crown's Ministers')agenda for the coming session. today, of course, the Gracious Speech is written by the politicians in the Cabinet.
The ceremonial, although dusted down in 1902 for Edward VII, is essentially medieval. there are illustrations showing Henry VII and even Edward I, in Parliament dating from medieval times that (with the exceptions of the Abbots since the 1530s is essentially unchanged today.
The Sovereign leaves Buckingham Palace in the Irish State Coach escorted by a Sovereign's Escort of the Household Cavalry. (Until 1939 the Gold (Coronation) State Coach was used, but that vehichle, dating from the 1760s, and used by HM at her Golden Jubilee in 2002, can only be used at the walk. the Irish State Coach can be used at the trot and thus cuts down on journey time.) before the Queens procession, a separate procession, with it's own cavalry escort carries the regalia to the Palace of Westminster.
The regalia used comprises the Imperial State Crown (1937 essentially but remodelled for the Queen and using ancient jewels including the Black Prince's ruby, worn in a helmet crown at the battle of Agincourt by Henry V in 1415); the emerald said to come from the ring of Edward the Confessor (died 1066); the Stuart Sapphire and one of the huge Diamonds from the Star of Africa). Also carried in the carriage - usually Queen Alexandra's Coach or the Glass Coach - are the Cap of Maintenance (a red velvet cap with ermine trim carried on a stick); the sword of State, and at least two ceremonial maces. All are normally kept in the Tower of London.
On arrival at the Palace of Westminster (also known as the Houses of Parliament) the queen is received at the royal entrance below the Victoria Tower by the Earl Marshal (the Duke of Norfolk) and the Lord Great Chamberlain (Lord Cholmondley - pronounced "Chummley"). They preceed the Queen as she ascends the staircase to the Robing Room.
On the journey to the Palace the Queen has worn The Diadem, a diamond encrusted open circlet made for George IV in 1821. A king would wear military uniform. In the Robing Room the Diadem is exchanged for the Imperial State Crown and the Sovereign assumes his/her Parliamentary Robes of crimson velvet trimmed with ermine.
Incidentally, the "imperial" crown has nothing to do with the British Empire. Crown with arches that are raised (rather than descending into a central dip as does the St Edward Crown used for the actual coronation) are referred to as "imperial" and are a sign of the country's independence from control by another power such as a Papacy.
If the Sovereign has not yet undergone the rite of coronation when first opening parliament, the crown is carried before him/her.
Crowned and robed the Queen processes to the Chamber of the House of lords, with the Earl Marshal and the Lord Great Chamberlain walking backwards before her. The Royal Gallery is lined with members of the Royal Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard. The Honourable corps of gentlemen at Arms are on guard in the Prince's Chamber, beyond which is the Lords.
While all this has been going on, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod (also an officer of the Order of the Garter - founded 1348) has been despatched on the Queen's orders to summon the House of Commons to attend Her Majesty in the Lords.
PART TWO to follow - if anyone is interested.
Phil |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 908
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 2:11 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
Thanks for this, and yes, I am interested. Here in the States, C-Span gives us a tase of some of of the Parliamentary proceedings and frequently airs question and answer sessions in the Commons, which I find fascinating (when I can manage to watch). Frankly, I have trouble imagining some of our American politicians being able to handle some of the more lively exchanges.
As I was pulling material from Hansard yesterday, I noticed that in 1886, it was the Lord Chancellor who read the Queen's Speech for her (in Queen Victoria's presence of course), where nowadays Elizabeth II reads for herself. Another thing I was struck by while watching the most recent ceremony was this slamming of the door business in the Commons; I don't know the history behind that--I'm guessing that it's meant to illustrate the independence of the Commons from the Lords?
I look forward to reading Part Two, Phil.
Cheers,
Dave
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1536
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 2:42 pm: |
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Hi Phil
This is very interesting and I am greatly enjoying receiving the information, so thanks for taking the time to research and post it.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4517
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
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Phil, a question : in the case of William III and Mary II (up until 1694) did they both open Parliament?
Robert |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 608
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 4:02 pm: |
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Robert - William III and Mary II were JOINT Sovereigns. Usually a king has a Queen CONSORT while a Queen in her own right (like Elizabeth II) is referred to as a Queen REGNANT.
In 1688/89, after James II (Mary's father) was said to have abandoned the throne by fleeing abroad, William, Hereditary Prince of Orange (ruler of the Netherlands), and Mary were JOINTLY offered the throne by Parliament. They were both crowned as Sovereign, with two Coronation chairs, and two sets of regalia which still survive. Mary was a Queen Regnant. She was heir to the throne (her much younger half-brother James, later known as the "Old Pretender" was catholic and not recognised as legitimate). William would not accept the throne as consort - thus they ruled as equals. This is
UNIQUE in British history.
David - the slamming of the doors in the face of the Sovereign's emissary, Black Rod, does indeed represent the independence of the Loyal Commons.
On the eve of the English Civil War, Charles I, went to Westminster with soldiers to arrest six members who were seen as resisting the royal authority. The film "Cromwell" is incorrect in stating Oliver Cromwell as one of them.
The Commons then sat in the medieval St Stephen's Chapel, and Charles said to Mr Speaker Lenthall that he must "borrow your chair". Once seated, the King demanded the whereabouts of the six members, the Speaker memorably replied, "Sir, I have neither eyes to see, nor lips to speak, save as this House commands me."
Charles then commented that he saw "the birds have flown" and left. Since that day no King or Queen has ever entered the Commons Chamber.
prince Charles occasionally listens to debates from the gallery for members of the House of Lords, but on the day he becomes king he will never enter that chamber again.
When the new Chamber was built after the war, the quen's father, George VI, visited it BEFORE it came into use.
On Victoria, she always read the Gracious speech herself until her beloved Albert died in 1861. Thereafter, for many years, she declined to undertake public or state duties, but later on was prevailed to do so sometimes.
She tended to wear a small diamond crown seen in some portraits and now in the Tower, and the Imperial State Crown was carried before her - it HAS to be present I believe. The Lord Chancellor read her speech for her. Notwithstanding rumour, Victoria spoke perfect English though with some Germanic inflections.
When pregnant with her two younger children, I seem to recall that Parliament was opened by a commision of Lords on behalf of the Queen. In 1974, a year with two State openings, because there were two General Elections, the Queen travelled to the second by car and wore day clothes.
The Lord Chancellor carries the speech in a heavily embroidered bag or "purse" bearing the royal arms. He takes it from this, and hands the speech, bowing, to the Queen, who returns it to him when she has finished.
As she sits on her throne in the Lords, the Queen is directly facing Mr Speaker, on his Chair, some hundred yards away, in the Commons.
The throne is located on or under the "Cloth of Estate". I believe that there is some confusion over whether the cloth (a medieval mark of rank, not only of royalty) was the carved canopy overhead, or the splendid carpet on the floor. there was a brief controversy in 1952 as to whether the duke of edinburgh was allowed to sit on/under the cloth of estate. He has indeed, always done so.
if you want more, I have more. Royal ceremonial and history is a speciality of mine.
Thanks for your kind words all,
Phil |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4518
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
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Yes, Phil, I was just wondering which of the two read the speech.
I think Victoria found the ISC too heavy, didn't she?
Interesting stuff, Phil.
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 910
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
|
Thanks very much, Phil. I had wondered if the tradition of slamming the doors shut originated from the time of your Civil War. I did NOT know that no monarch since then had gone to the Commons Chamber. Also, thanks for that bit about the reason for Queen Victoria not reading her speech.
By the way, how often does Parliament sit? Going through Hansard, usually there are records generally through Feb-August for any year, but I notice sometimes they're sitting through December or January.
You may know that despite the American Revolution, many Americans are bewildered and fascinated by Royal ceremony and history, so I hope you will continue on.
Cheers,
Dave |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1537
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 5:04 pm: |
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Hi Dave & Phil
Thanks again, Phil, for this fascinating history, and I would like to add another historic aside that dates from the Civil War. Dave, the British Army does not bear the name "Royal" in contrast to the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, and Royal Air Force, because of its role in the downfall and beheading of Charles I, which was viewed as a traitorous role by the Royalists. There are "Royal" regiments but the Army overall has been denied the designation "Royal" since the time of the Civil War.
The russet coats worn by the soldiers of the English Civil War (see below) evolved into the famous "Redcoat" scarlet uniforms of troops in the Hanoverian era, when the Redcoats fought at such battles as Culloden, Quebec, Bunker Hill, and Yorktown.
On the Parliamentarian side, Cromwell and other officers modernized the English army with the New Model Army that routed the Royalists in a number of battles, e.g., at Marston Moor, Yorkshire on July 2, 1644, where in a battle that lasted two hours, over 4,000 of Prince Rupert's Royalists were killed and around 1,500 taken prisoner, much higher casualties than the Parliamentarian side. As noted on one website, the New Model Army "acquired a reputation for firm discipline, high morale, and promotion by merit and religious and political radicalism as a consequence of its victorious record and the personal influence of Cromwell. . ."
All my best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on June 07, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 913
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
|
Chris,
Fascinating about the British Army. . .you'd think they'd have earned the title back over the centuries, eh?
Cheers,
Dave
Trivia for you, Phil, or anyone else (except John Savage and Robert Linford), ten points: who links the only British Prime Minister ever to be assassinated to Mary Jane Kelly? |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1538
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
|
Hi Dave
Glad you found the information about the British Army interesting. The assassinated British Prime Minister was Spencer Percival, assassinated 11 May 1812 by a disgruntled officeholder, John Bellingham (much like President Garfield decades later).
Not sure of the link between Percival and Mary Jane Kelly. Possibly Phil might know!
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
|
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 610
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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David - the PM was Spencer Perceval, assassinated in the lobby of the old house of commons by John Bellingham, a man with a grudge in 1812. I cannot think of a link though.
On William and Mary, I think he read the speech, as he tended to take the prime role.
Victoria and the crown - I think she just disliked too much ceremony in her widowhood. She certainly wore the crown at her coronation - indeed was crowned with it as the traditional coronation crown - the St Edward Crown - is solid gold and appreciably heavier.
The present Queen, determined to do what her father did, used the St Edward Crown. This is then exchanged at the end of the coronation ceremomny for the Imperial State Crown, which is worn with robes of purple rather than the Parliamentary robes in which the monarch enters the Abbey.
Robes worn by peers traditionally have differeing rows of ermine tails on the capes of their coronation robes - one for a baron up to four for a Duke.
David - Parliament sits for the whole year. The session lasts from the autumn until the summer when traditionally there has been a long break, which includes the annual political party conferences in September/October. Recently, to appear more hard working, MPs have decided to reconvene after the summer break and before the conferences for a few weeks. But it will not happen this year, as a bomb proof screen is being erected in front of the public gallery during the recess.
There are shorter recesses at Christmas, Easter, Witsun and around some other school and public holidays. Hours are now more family friendly, but MPs try to get back to their constituencies on a Friday.
Fascinating stuff indeed, about the army and all true as far as I know.
Phil
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 914
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
|
Hi Phil,
Thank you; I've been going through a lot of Hansard debates on microcard from the 1850-90s and most of the records seem to end in August and then pick up again in January or February (though like I said, some go on through December).
Dave
Answer to trivia:
"Roderick Macdonald was a crofter's son,
When his daddy would visit he'd come along"
Macdonald was married to Perceval's great granddaughter, Frances Emma Maryon Perceval. Thanks to John Savage who told me who Perceval was.
(Message edited by oberlin on June 07, 2005) |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 611
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 1:42 am: |
|
David - In Victorian times Parliament met for shorter periods. For instance, it would meet during the london "season" in the Spring and early summer. Later MPs and peers would be on their estates in the country for the sport etc. There was MUCH less legislation then and politics were of a different kind - heated but with an underlying concensus.
I think this situation largely prevailed until the last War, but may have extended in part as late as the 60s. I haven't checked.
Thanks for the explanation, David. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 617
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 8:08 am: |
|
While discussing the regalia and the by-ways of royal history, some of you might be interested in the history of some of the regalia kept in the Tower.
For many years it was believed that almost all of the medieval, Tudor and early Stuart regalia was destroyed under Cromwell and the Commonwelth (1649-1659 roughly) when Briatin was briefly a republic. All that had survived, it was thought, were some of the important jewels, the ampulla (a container shaped like an eagle used to hold the chrism/oil for the anointing) and the associated spoon.
In recent years it has been recognised that the records of the goldsmith who made the new crown jewels for Charles II's coroonation in 1661 only refers to the "addition" of gold. Not enough is provided by the state to make a complete crown, so it assumes Sir Robert Viner had something to work with - perhaps a surviving crown frame.
We also know that Cromwell was offered and rejected a crown (preferring the title Lord Protector), and that a crown was displayed with his funeral effigy at his lying in state before his funeral.
Thus, the St Edward Crown (the coronation crown) may well - in terms of the gold it comprises if not its current shape - relate to the very ancient crown jewels of England. Whether the crown used was the Stuart State Crown (seen in portraits of Charles I and James I) which I would see as most likely; or the vastly older King Alfred's crown, is not (so far as I know) ascertained.
The crown of England may not by law be removed from the kingdom. this was discovered in 1910 when it was planned for George V to attend a Durbar at Delhi in India in his role as Emperor of India. In the event a special new crown had to be made, as a (then) cost of £60,000. this still remains among the crown jewels in the Tower, as was agreed when India and Pakisthan become independent in 1947.
Phil |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 917
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 8:47 am: |
|
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the information about the shorter sessions in Victorian times. I had wondered about it.
Dave |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 619
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 9:21 am: |
|
David, if you ever get a chance to see the classic BBC series "The Pallisers" (out on dvd in the UK) which is based on Trollope's mid-Victorian political novels, it gives a good idea of the times and of the life and habits of the political elite of the period.
Phil |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1539
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 10:21 am: |
|
Hi Phil
Thanks once more for the great information you are posting.
Dave
Thanks for that about coroner Roderick Macdonald -- new information to me. You are fasting becoming our resident coroners expert, Dave. 
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 918
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
|
Phil, thanks for the tip about the show. That actually is available here in the States (unlike Doctor Who), and I will put it on my to buy list against that happy day when I can afford it.
Thanks, Chris--I would need many years to become an expert, but I do think John, Robert, and I will be able to present you with what will hopefully be a good article for Ripperologist. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1540
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
|
Hi Dave
Good to know that a coroners article is coming down the pike from yourself, John and Robert. Will look forward to receiving it for publication in Ripperologist.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
|
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2090
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
|
Hi Phil
many thanks for this fascinating thread. I saw on one occasion the regalia in the Tower of London but that was in the old Jewel House that used to be underground. I understand the new setting for the Jewels is much better but as I seldom get to London (by choice!) I have not seen them.
Folks might be interested to know that there is a full reproduction set of the regalia in the museum of Westminster Abbey which I have seena few times. I understand that these are matched not only for appearance but also weight to the originals as they are used for rehearsals of coronations.
Also there used to be a (semi) permanent exhibition in London called, I think, "Crown Imperial." This was based on the collection of a wealthy guy whose name I can't remember who acquired reproduction sets of Royal regalia from around the world. What happened to this collection I do not know.
Phil - can you confirm a few ideas lurking at the back of my head?
1) is it true that the Sovereign is actually barred from ever entering the House of Commons?
2) with which crown was Victoria crowned at her coronation?
3) in the case of William and Mary I assume that the Royal Assent on any bill required both their signatures?
3) who was the last monarch who refused the Royal Assent?
4) I know that the Royal Assent used to be worded in medieval french - is this still done?
Thanks again for a fascinating thread
Chris
|
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 625
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
|
Chris, to answer your questions as best I can:
1) is it true that the Sovereign is actually barred from ever entering the House of Commons?
Yes, if you look in one of my posts above you'll find the reason why. Prince Charles can sit in the Lords' gallery to listen to debates as heir, but once he becomes king, he is barred.
2) with which crown was Victoria crowned at her coronation?
The Imperial State Crown made for her. The St Edward crown was regarded as too heavy for an 18 year old girl, but it was present on the altar. I am still slightly unclear on the details, but my understanding is that Victoria's version of the Imperial State Crown (essentially a new frame with the old jewels reset) was made in 1837/38. It continued in use to 1936, when the orb (or monde to use the technical terms) which sits atop the arches carrying a cross-pattee, fell off as the coffin of George V was being carried in state through the streets of London. It was picked up by a sergeant of the Guards. Some took it as an ill-omen for the reign of Edward VIII.
The crown was I think remodelled for George VI in 1937. and then either remade or very heavily remodelled for Elizabeth II in 1953. If you look at pictures of george VI's coronation the arches now are much flatter and lower than they were in 1937.
On a minor detail, until Victoria's day, most of the crown existed as mere frames and the jewels, except for the historic stones, such as the Black Prince's ruby; the Stuart Sapphire etc, were hired for particular occasions. hence the crown frame used by George IV and William IV still exists but without any jewels.
If you are interested in the crown jewels you might be interested in this site from which you can buy excellent miniatures:
http://www.crownminiatures.com/
3) in the case of William and Mary I assume that the Royal Assent on any bill required both their signatures?
Yes. But William was always the senior partner.
3) who was the last monarch who refused the Royal Assent?
Queen Anne - I'd have to check the date, but 170-something.
4) I know that the Royal Assent used to be worded in medieval french - is this still done?
As far as I know, yes, although it may now be given in English. The Uk had a drive to modernise much legal-lingo a few years ago.
the Norman-french terms are:
Yes = La reine le veult (the Queen wishes it)
No = La reine s'avisera (the Queen advises against it).
Glad you have enjoyed the thread, I have enjoyed digging into my knowledge.
Anyone got any other questions about the monarchy or the British constitution etc? History generally, if you like.
Phil |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4528
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 1:35 pm: |
|
Phil, I've always taken Napoleon Bonaparte's act of crowning himself in 1804 as a gesture of self-assertion, which I suppose it was. Recently though, in reading about Tsar Nicholas II, I've discovered that it was traditional for Tsars to crown themselves. Do you know of any other instances of this?
Robert |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 628
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 2:51 pm: |
|
I had not heard of that, but all coronations differed. I used the past tense because the English (not British) ceremony is almost the only one still extant since pope's ceased to be crowned.
The Dutch and Belgian monarchs are inaugurated 9in the netherland there is regalia which is present, but no crown is worn).
The German Kaisers were not crowned, but Wilhelm II had a crown made.
The Hungarian kings were crowned until 1916 (the King was also Emperor of Austria).
Russian monarchs do not seem to have worn the diamond mitre-crown that exists (Lord twining in his definitive book says it was last worn for the opening of the duma in 1906). The only pictures I have seen of Nicholas II enthroned and in regaila shows him wearing the cap on Monomachus or some such. I will do some further work on this, but I frankly, don't know the answer.
I suspect that for reasons of legitimacy and piety, most rulers were crowned by a religious or state representative.
Phil |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4529
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
|
Thanks Phil. Yes, that's just it - Tsarist Russia was extremely religious, which is why I was a bit surprised at Nicholas crowning himself.
According to "Nicholas and Alexandra" by Robert K. Massie,Nicholas wanted to use the 800-year-old Cap of Monomakh, which was very Russian and very light - only two pounds. But he was obliged to observe the etiquette of the ceremony, and so got lumbered with the nine pound Imperial Crown of Russia, made in 1762 for Catherine the Great.
Robert |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 629
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 4:26 pm: |
|
I have massie's book but hadn't referred to it. Thanks for that.
I will try to do some more research.
Phil |
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