|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2194
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 6:02 am: |       |
Nina,
Thanks.
(A nice picture on your profile page, by the way.)
Maria,
Another one that keeps nagging me is the religious right-wing's strange and often positive attitude to war; what happened to "Thou shall not kill"? Or is there a Christian crusade ambition hiding in there somewhere?
All the best
G., Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3154
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 7:51 am: | |
Hi Glenn -
A major driving force (though certainly not the only one) behind the evangelical support of the War in Iraq, I believe, is the (mostly) unspoken fact that Saddam Hussein was a major threat to Israel. He had bombed them during the first Gulf War, and he was funding the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
There is a fervent belief among evangelical Christians that according to Scripture, those who protect Israel are doing "God's work." Its a theme you'll hear again and again in the pulpit, but very rarely will you hear it spoken in secular outlets (except by people like the Rev. Jerry Falwell).
For the same reason, American evangelicals have provided tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars to support the incendiary Israeli settlement movement in what are generally considered to be Palestinian and Lebanese territories. While American Jews are largely split 50/50 on the issue of Israeli settlers, you will find no such disagreement in the evangelical community.
Of course, evangelical Christians are already generally conservative/right-wing to begin with and would vote pro-Bush in either way. But in terms of "Biblical" reasoning, I do believe the protection and expansion of Israel had a part to play in the enormous outpouring of evangelical support Bush received in this past election, and would have overtaken the "Thou shalt not kill" factor. For this reason, the removal of Saddam was always the key factor in their decision to go to War. The idea that Saddam could use weapons of mass destruction against the U.S. was always a weak argument - but the idea that he could use WMDs against his neighbor Israel was always a very real and frightening possibility.
(For the record, I know Bush is the first American President to officially support the creation of a Palestinian state. Whether this is a stance he's taken for ideological reasons or as a result of extreme political pressure after the latest flare-up in the Middle East is a matter of opinion.)
Also I should state that I am not an evangelical Christian, and I don't mean to offend anyone in the evangelical community.
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2195
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 8:25 am: | |
Hi Stephen,
Very interesting and I guess you're right; This is what I have suspected as well and it all makes perfectly sense. A great analysis, Stephen.
For many Europeans there is quite a few biult-in contradictions in there that may appear confusing. Another paradox is that USA put Saddam Hussein there themselves!
I guess one has to understand that the question of values and patriotic expressions (and which may seem alien to many Europeans), may derive from a historical and puritan heritage originating from the time of Mayflower, as well as the necessity to -- by using the religious heritage as a glue -- find a way to unite such a vast country, consisting of separate more or less independent states.
All the best
G., Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2196
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 8:33 am: | |
Just an addition:
I also want to make it clear that I myself am quite a religious person (although maybe not in the active sense of the word) -- it just scares me when religious beliefs and expressions are allowed to influence politics.
As far as I am concerned, they should stay away from each other.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1210
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 3:20 pm: | |
These posts are so reassuring.I just got back from a weekend away where I put on Sky only to hear an American Military spokesperson talking about "going in"[to Falluja] to "take out Satan"-this I must admit had quite the opposite effect.Instead of enlightenment there seemed to be a medieval demonisation of whoever is deemed "the enemy".And Glenn is correct to state that Saddam Hussain was once courted by Rumsfvelt and co.-while it suited them [mind I"ve no sympathy for Saddam and his henchmen].
But Stephen makes some really good points.I like to remind myself though of those
Israelis who have seen injustice in the treatment
of the Palestinians in the occupied territories and have stood firm despite some fierce opposition-especially from the zealots in the Zionist camp.
Maria and Nina so good to read your words!
Natalie
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3391
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 4:12 pm: | |
Hi all
I have no wish to get drawn into a political, or religious, discussion. This post is just to say that I'm puzzled. Bush gets more votes than Kerry, but this thread consists almost entirely of posts from Democrats. Unless there's something inherently Democrat about JTR studies, where have all the Republicans gone? 
Robert (who zaps TV politicians faster than adverts or soaps) |
Brad McGinnis
Inspector
Username: Brad
Post Number: 203
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 10:29 pm: | |
Very preceptive Spry! Fact is we left Saddam standing after the first gulf war. In the Arab world this was almost as good as a tie. The best way for Saddam to regain the standing he wanted in the Middle East is to hit Israel. U.S. policy is to back Israel no matter how bad they treat the Palistinians.. If Iraq would have launched an attack on Israel, Saddam would have been a hero in the Arab world. This would have put us between a rock and a hard place. The real WMD was the loose cannon Saddam and no matter who was president it was in the best interest of everyone to take him out. Bear in mind during the first gulf war it was illegal for the US to target a foreign head of state. Congress changed that law after our failure to remove Saddam.
Ok, being from western Pa. I have to wonder if Saddam will become a tourist attraction. On the anniversary of his capture they may return him to his hole. If he pops out and sees his shadow we get 6 more weeks of war
By the way Im a Republican. But I believe in stem cell research, abortion is the mothers choice, and I dont care who does what with who ever in their bedroom. We aint all Moral Majority nuts.....Brad |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2200
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 11:14 pm: | |
Brad,
"...and no matter who was president it was in the best interest of everyone to take him [Saddam] out."
For "everyone" in the States, maybe. The Americans are dead wrong to think that the Europeans in general give a damn (maybe with the exception of Tony Blair). The fact that the US wanted to get rid of him for their personal interests is one thing; trying to drag us Europeans into it on false motives -- demanding we should put lives and money at stake -- is another.
Saddam Hussein may have been a tyrant and a madman -- no question about that -- but no one can make me believe that the invasion of Iraq had anything whatsoever to do with the War on Terror. And that is the crucial point; to set the records straight and say, we'll finish off what George Bush the elder never finished, is one thing. But it's a devastating fact that the invasion was camouflaged as a part of the war on terror, where practically all facts concerning Saddam's army of weapons of mass destruction was bogus information and lies. That is in itself a crime.
So, I'm asking again: what about Afghanistan, Bin Laden and Al Qaida?
"But I believe in stem cell research, abortion is the mothers choice, and I dont care who does what with who ever in their bedroom. We aint all Moral Majority nuts"
Good for you, Brad.
Still, it was undoubtably those issues -- alongside macho rhetoric about warfare -- that settled the outcome of the election. Not important internal issues concerning unemployment and the budget deficit.
It does tell us something.
All the best
(I can't believe I am still diving into the muddy waters of political issues when I have promised myself not to... oh what the heck)
G, Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on November 07, 2004)
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 484
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 12:20 am: | |
Glenn--Well & Good. But let's remind the good folks that Europe's outrage isn't as pristine as you paint it. Both France & Germany had interests in Iraqi oil. (So did Russia, Eqypt, etc.) Could we really have expected the Iraqi people to have taken care of Saddam, when half the freakin' world was doing trade with his regime? RP |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1213
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 4:21 am: | |
RJ-well isn"t the whole debacle about oil? After Sadam invaded Kuwait-protesting loudly that he thought he had been given the "go ahead" by Western powers-Bush Snr and his advisers could take no more risks regarding the oil reserves of the Middle East.Anyway however its dressed up it appears to be mostly "about the economy,stupid"-Clinton"s reputed remarks on the eve of some invasion or other-his illegal bombing of a pharmaceutical company thought to harbour WMD"s or similar.
Anyway Brad and Spry-why didnt they invade Iran if they were just concerned with anti Zionism? Dont forget the Iraq of Saddam Hussain was a secular state which isn"t the case with regard to Iran.Could this have had anything to do with their choice of Iraq?
Glenn-how well you voice European dissent!
Natalie
|
Eliza Cline
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 10:34 pm: | |
Sorry, sorry, sorry. I apologize on behalf of my countrymen and women who were dumb enough to re elect this imbecile. Kerry wasn't perfect, I didn't support him in the primaries, but at least he was sane and reasonably intelligent. There is a shockingly high level of ignorance in the US. Most Bush voters think Hussein was behind 9/11, had WMD, etc. Who are these people? I have no clue. It's too bad the Bush states can't secede and form their own demented little country.
What I don't understand is why the British leadership is enabling Bush. You are doing us no favors by supporting his costly and wasteful war. You should get out while you can. |
Richard Dewar
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 12:45 pm: | |
The American divisions between fundamentalists and secularists are not new. What is remarkable is how fundamentalists, in the wake of 9/11, have risen to dominate American politics and culture.
If you look at electoral maps of the United States over the past 150 years, you will see the same patterns - the southern and midwestern states voting one way, the northeast and coastal western states the other.
William Jennings Bryan, who argued at the Scopes Monkey Trial in favor of creationism over evolution, ran for president three times between 1896-1908. The sections of the country he dominated were the same as the results in 2004.
The inner American struggle has always been between the modernity and secularism of western european values versus America's own puritanical instincts.
September 11th was seen by many Americans as religious war. This first election after that tragedy offered American's two strategies.
John Kerry symbolized European values of secularism, modernity, and moderation. His proposal was to treat terrorism as a criminal event - constantly saying he would hunt down and kill those responsible.
George Bush argued that this was a holy war - a battle between Christianity and Islam. He never said this specifically - but his deeds and suggestions certainly did.
Nevermind no weapons of mass destruction had been found, Iraq was "evil" and needed to be destroyed.
What Bush campaigned against was the Enlightenment. He argued, successfully to most Americans, that we must become as militantly fundamentalist as our opponents in order to be victorious.
On most moral issues, President Bush and Osama bin Laden agree (abortion, death penalty, gun control, the use of violence to destroy what they consider evil), their only disagreement is about who is the Savior.
A recent study showed that 75% of Bush supporters believe WMDs have been found. 56% believe the 9/11 Commission found Saddam responsible for 9/11.
It is a mistake to discount all Bush supporters, and 51% of Americans, as ignorant and stupid. This misses the truth of what happened in 2004.
Kerry supporters look to religion for personal instruction. Bush's fundamentalist supporters look to religion to guide public policy.
Bush's attacks on western culture and modernity (shockingly similiar to bin Laden's) found a responsive audience among fundamentalist Christians worried about what they consider Islamic aggression.
What is really different is for the first time in my lifetime, a slim majority of Americans think we should be less like France and more like Iran.
Richard Dewar
|
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 9:17 pm: | |
Interesting. Some people just can't stand the idea that they are in the minority. Must be that everyone else is an illiterate hick buffoon...
No offense, Dems, but as long as you keep thinking that way you will keep losing elections in the USA. The Republicans kicked your butts because more people in the US think the way they do than you--or at least more people vote that way. If you want to play into the Republicans hands then just keep underestimating--or at least mocking--their message. Keep thinking that somehow the evil Bushies "fooled" the electorate. The Dems have been trying to convince themselves of their so-called intellectual superiority since 1994, and look where it has gotten them. A series of good old fashioned ass-kickings.
You need ideas, and "I hate Bush" ain't gonna cut it anymore.
Just out of curiosity, how would a campaign based solely on "I hate Blair" play out in the UK? I'll bet it wouldn't work either....
Regards, Vincent |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1221
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Yes Richard you make some good points there.Here we are not really used to religious zealots being in power!
Vincent-don"t be fooled.Blair is deeply unpopular
but his party is still likely to get back in because the other side are more feared.[He didnt start out by being personally unpopular-far from it-but the country has been deeply divided over the invasion of Iraq-over a million people of all ages marched agaist the war one of the biggest anti-war demonstrations in History.
I like large numbers of other people am barely able to watch today"s news on Falluja-it seems to have now turned into a humanitarian disaster for those civilians left including the aged and
children. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3430
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 5:25 pm: | |
Hi Eliza
There's nothing new in political leaders being stupid. I have not been following the US elections, but I'll wager that both Kerry and Bush are stupid.
Over here our three main party leaders are stupid.
Lord Melbourne once called out down the stairs to his departing cabinet, after a long meeting over the Corn Laws, "Before you go, tell me what we decided. It doesn't matter what, but we must all say the same thing."
Good old Henry V led his men to near disaster, and was only saved by their performance at Agincourt. He should have been tied to a tree and longbowed.
Stalin thought he could trust Hitler.
Osama bin Laden plots 9/11 and doesn't even stop to think what his next move will be.
I could go on...and on...
My polling card always goes straight in the bin.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2246
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 9:37 pm: | |
Robert,
You forgot the prime minister and government of Sweden on that list ... 
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2247
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 9:48 pm: | |
Richard Dewar,
Extremely good points. Right on the money.
Eliza Cline,
No need for you to apologize on behalf of a whole country -- everyone are responsible for their own personal actions.
But you are completely right -- here in Scandinavia Blair's American boot-licking and support for Bush's holy war is a mystery. A shame, since he seems to have started out rather well in the beginning. Maybe he should have stayed in the rock business...
Like our Swedish politicians should have stayed where they belong -- in jail...
Vincent,
You seem more interested in kicking Democrat butt than really put yourself into what Bush and the Republicans are saying and have done these past four years.
How was it up there in space, mate?
All the best
G, Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on November 12, 2004)
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 539
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 10:57 pm: | |
Hi, Glenn
Happy belated birthday, I hope you had a good one.
To be fair, there are some pretty hot holy wars going on in Europe right now too--one of them in the most liberal area of the world, the wonderful Netherlands (I mean that truly and not sarcastically). And I thought pot was supposed to mellow people out.
Although the Moral Majority scares me bad, at least you can still wear a headscarf in the U.S. But don't let a Moonshadow follow you. . .you'll get kicked out.
Cheers,
Dave
One American who's really really glad Tony Blair's around.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3436
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 4:25 am: | |
Can anyone tell me whether Bush has been out to visit the troops? I think I'm right in saying that Blair hasn't - or at least, not recently. I believe these people should pay a visit. Perhaps someone will say that the heightened security would only hamper the war effort, but there shouldn't be any heightened security - everyone should be in the same boat.
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 540
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 9:55 am: | |
Hi, Robert
Bush made a surprise visit to troops in Baghdad about a year ago (confined to a base). He also recently (I think it was just after the election) visited some troops in a stateside hospital. Twice doesn't seem like very much, but maybe there's more I don't know about.
Cheers,
Dave |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2252
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 10:58 am: | |
Hi, Dave.
Thank you.
What on Earth do you mean with a holy war in Netherlands? I haven't heard anything about it. And I watch the news frequently.
Are you referring to ethnic conflicts maybe?
Well, you can find that in practically every country in the world, not least in Europe, but also to some extent in US. No, I don't think a melting pot mellow people out, our own experiences here at home points at the complete opposite.
But there is a difference, USA is a country with an extremely short history from an European point of view, and is totally built upon immigration. That's not the case in many countries in Europe.
I don't know about Netherlands but in Sweden you can wear a head scarf, although it's been widely debated if that should be allowed in schools.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 541
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 11:42 am: | |
Hi, Glenn
Here's what happened: a filmmaker named Theo Van Gogh (great nephew of the painter) made a short film critical of Islamic treatment of women--in the film, he showed naked women with Koran verses all over their bodies with stories about women being beaten and raped, forced into marriage, etc. Van Gogh's ten minute film was supposed to be the first of a series (the next one was going to be about Muslim men). I think Van Gogh might also have making statements about Muslims and goats, but I'm not sure. In any case, some Islamic extremist murdered him as he cycled in Amsterdam--slit his throat.
Now Muslims are being subjected to revenge attacks--a school has been bombed, people of Middle Eastern heritage have been threatened, and I read this morning that a Mosque has been burned down.
It's all very surprising, since the Dutch are supposed to have one of the most tolerant societies in the world. Apparently there have been tensions between the Dutch and immigrants for a long time (a right wing politician was murdered awhile back). Hopefully they'll come to their senses. You can find coverage over at the BBC--you'll see that it's not an ethnic issue, it's an immigration issue (I'm not sure one is worse than the other). So while we have plenty problems in the US, there's also some extreme behavior going on in parts of Europe as well. I've got a great friend who's Dutch, but since she's working in Malaysia I haven't been able to get her opinion on what it's like in Amersterdam right now (cheers to you, Zaza).
Btw, from what I wrote it sounds like I said they banned headscarves in the Netherlands. As far as I know, they haven't--it's France and Bavaria that have done that (also Christian symbols aren't allowed).
Cheers,
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3440
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
Hi Dave
I suppose some entertainers have been going out there. Still doesn't seem fair to me - in the Vietnam war you lot got Raquel Welch. In World War 2 us Brits got Dame Vera Lynn. 
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 542
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:23 pm: | |
Robert,
At least it wasn't Dame Edna 
Cheers,
Dave |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2254
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:25 pm: | |
Hi Dave,
Ah yes!!!!! Now I remember. Well, immigrant and ethnic issues hang together -- at least they do where I live.
"Now Muslims are being subjected to revenge attacks--a school has been bombed, people of Middle Eastern heritage have been threatened, and I read this morning that a Mosque has been burned down."
Yeah, this happens every week over here in Sweden. I guess I'm just used to it.
You see this everywhere in Europe. Frank could possibly answer this better, but France and Netherlands do have a large number of immigrants. This generally causes tension, not tolerance, it's a dreadful fact.
We in Sweden have quite many immigrants as well -- mainly from the Middle East -- and we have a lot of problems with the tensed situations that occurs from this.
Also Denmark -- a country that is also known for it's liberal approach on many issues -- has a large number of immigrants, and they problems now and then with racial outbursts, violence and disturbance.
The point is, that although most countries in Europe have internal ethic problems, we don't invade other countries to force them on our own beliefs in an arrogant and imperialistic manner. That's the difference.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1225
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
That is the difference .Thankyou Glenn.Thankyou for your words.
Natalie
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 543
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 1:04 pm: | |
Hi, Glenn
Thanks--I had no idea that Sweden was having such problems as well or that this was so widespread across Europe (like you say, on a weekly basis).
Fair enough about the war in Iraq. I disagree with your assesment and would say it's not quite as simple as that, but I won't argue the point because it only leads to bad feelings. I do wonder since you're in Europe, how you feel about the U.N. and the whole resoultion process. For example, do you believe the U.N. should not enforce Security Council resolutions they pass? Do you approve of Kofi Annan's handling of the situation in the Sudan--where I've read that 70,000 refugees have been murdered to date.
Whatever your view is, I enjoy corresponding with you.
Best,
Dave
(Message edited by oberlin on November 13, 2004) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2255
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 5:41 pm: | |
Hi Dave,
Actually, I haven't a clue. I am more into internal affairs, not foreign politics. So I have no idea about Sudan -- I just simply don't keep track.
But I can tell you this: the UN today is quite a useless organization. It has no authority whatsoever, and practically all countries do what they want and only laugh their heads off when the UN is protesting against something or threatens to go in a country to bring order.
UN doesen't work anymore, because no one has any respect for the organization. And without respect, they have no mandats to act with credibility.
It doesen't matter if it's USA, former Jugoslavia, China, North Chorea or the Middle East. The UN has no real power anymore, because their forces and resources are too small and the world has become more complicated.
I don't think the UN is handling anything well these days, although I think they did the right thing when they sent observers into Iraq to look for weapons of mass destruction, but I believe they should have had more time. Because then they would have gotten the chance to prove already BEFORE the invasion, that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, and that those claims were based on bogus information.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 545
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 6:29 pm: | |
Thanks for your thoughts, Glenn--I'm very interested in the European view. I agree that the U.N. has lost credibility, but I'm hoping the U.S. and Europe will find some way to become closer and that the U.N. will to some extent be reformed. I think one problem is the veto power some countries have (I'm aware that the U.S. makes more use of their veto than anybody particularly when Israel is involved). Another problem is the hazy diplomatic language that goes into the making of some of these resolutions--the diplomats craft them to make everybody happy, gets it passed unanimously, and then when it comes time to enforce it, there's a tremendous debate on what was meant in the first place. "When I said serious consequences, I meant let's pass another resolution! After lunch!" That sort of thing. This happened in the case of that final resolution over Iraq. It's also happening in the case of the Sudan where the government was given a deadline of the end of August (I think) to do something about militias massacring people. The middle of November, we're still waiting for something to happen.
I agree that weapons inspectors can be very effective--if they're allowed unrestricted access. That never happened in Iraq and at one point, inspectors left the country in disgust for several years before returning shortly before the war. I don't know how much coverage this got in Sweden, but here in the States since 1991 we continually saw footage of Saddam's soldiers turning inspectors away, not allowing them to inspect certain sites. That's one of the reasons we thought Saddam was hiding weapons--why on earth should he hinder inspections if he'd already destroyed all his weapons? Of course, turns out we were wrong. We didn't understand Saddam was bluffing, and he didn't understand we really meant to invade his country. Meanwhile, sanctions that were only intended to last a few months dragged out over twelve years and only hurt average citizens there--not Saddam. Then there's the no-fly zone some of us had to enforce after that big 1991 coalition from the Gulf War went home. Because Saddam went after the Kurds (who we encouraged to rise up only to abandon them), the U.S. U.K. and Australia (I believe) were left to enforce a no fly zone in Iraq. Saddam shot at our planes all the time. Of course, his weapons really had no chance of hitting anyone, but I think that anytime someone's shooting at guys trying to enforce a peace treaty, there's a problem.
Clearly, the Bush administration has badly mishandled the invasion (de-Baathification, missing weapons), and it's not going well in Iraq at all, but the U.S, U.K. and other countries didn't suddenly just decide to invade Iraq. There's a whole history of trying to enforce that 1991 peace treaty within the U.N. for twelve years.
Anyway, thanks for your views Glenn. Much appreciated.
Best,
Dave
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2256
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 7:35 pm: | |
No problem, Dave.
Thanks yourself. Always interesting to hear an American's view also on this matter.
Actually, when it comes to putting pressure on other governments, I would say NATO is more effective than the UN -- as far as military force is concerned.
I am not sure how NATO handles negotiations or diplomacy (it might not be their strongest points), but at least there are less cooks involved. I agree on that it's a problem for the UN that some countries lay their veto frequently -- I don't think the US is worst in that regards. As far as I recall China is generally a great problem here, but I could be wrong.
And then we have the European Union, of course, but I doubt if they can achieve anything of value -- too much elitism, too much bureaucracy and too little concern for global questions.
I personally hate EU, although Sweden has been a member of some time now, and it's still a widely debated area here in Sweden.
I see myself as a Swede (or a Scandinavian, at least) -- not a European. The fact that we're members doesen't matter. To me it's a political construction with very little support from the man on the street.
The sanctions against Iraq was indeed a disaster and probably fueled the inhabitants' hatred for the Western world and strengthened Saddam rather than the opposite. It's just like when one is releasing bombs; it is the civilians that takes the fall, seldom the government.
It is quite clear that there were no weapons of mass destructions in Iraq, except for those that USA once themselves had delivered to Saddam in the past. The Swedish leader for the observers -- Hans Blix -- was quite pissed off for him not being allowed to continue his work, and it wasn't Saddam or Iraq intelligence that put a lid on him.
Now we know that the documents and footage was a full scale scam by Rumsfeld and the sitting administration, in order to get rid of Saddam for hidden reasons -- not to get rid of terrorists (which should be the real goal in a War on Terror). No one is defending Saddam, but the war in Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with War on Terror. Anyone who thinks that has been manipulated.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3444
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 4:15 am: | |
Hi Dave
I wouldn't bank on Europe and America getting closer together. The European project in conception and operation is basically anti-American - for a number of reasons, not least of which is French bitterness against Briatain and America for what happened during WW2.
Glenn, the best thing the European Union has managed to come up with in 50 years is ABBA (where are those Swedish lyrics??? 
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2257
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 7:09 am: | |
Hi Robert,
You're right, EU was actually founded -- amongst other reasons -- as a balance counterpart against the US (but also against China and Asia), not least for economic reasons.
What? What has ABBA got to do with the European union? Abba is Swedish, period!
Aaaaaah, sorry Robert!
I'm afraid I've forgotten about that, but I've been busy.
All the best
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 546
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 11:17 am: | |
Robert,
"French bitterness against Briatain and America for what happened during WW2." Seriously? No wonder my French grandmother's been giving me the cold shoulder. . .
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3447
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 11:52 am: | |
Hi Dave
The time to get worried is when you go to visit her and she blocks her front path with lorries.
Robert |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 348
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 12:22 pm: | |
Hi Glenn & Dave,
Yes Glenn, it was on your birthday that Theo van Gogh was brutally killed. While cycling through Amsterdam, he was apparently overtaken by his assailant, who was also on bicycle. After having been shot at and possibly also having sustained one or more knife wounds, he was able to flee across the street. There his attacker apparently fired some more shots, which caused Van Gogh to collapse. The murderer then walked over to him and stabbed two knives into his body, a very large one and a small one. With this smaller one he pinned a letter to his body. According to witnesses he remained standing over the body after he had stabbed it, possibly to be sure his victim was dead. Some sources say Van Gogh’s throat was slashed. So, that was very gruesome and shocking indeed.
The police were able to capture the murderer shortly after the deed and he is of Moroccan origin with radical islamic connections. A ‘goodbye’ letter he was carrying at the time of his arrest indicated that he probably expected to be killed by the police directly after the deed, which would make him a martyr, and made reference to a possible death list, containing several politicians, like the mayor of Amsterdam.
The filmmaker had often come under criticism for his controversial movies, and he wrote columns about Islam on his Web site and for the Dutch newspaper Metro. He has had formal complaints filed against him for making alleged anti-Jewish, anti-Christian and anti-Muslim comments in interviews and columns that he wrote. His many provocative statements including mocking a prominent Dutch Jew, making references to "the rotten fish" of Nazareth and calling a radical Muslim politician "Allah's pimp." He also referred to the people he was talking about as ‘goat f*ckers’. Van Gogh is said to have been killed for what he said, in both word and picture.
His short English-language film Submission, which aired on Dutch television in August, enraged the Netherlands' Muslim community — including some Muslim women's groups that called its depiction of abuse of women insensitive. In the fictional story, a veiled Muslim woman spoke about her violent marriage, being raped by a relative and being brutally punished for adultery. In parts of the movie, the actress' naked body is shown through a transparent gown — with Koranic verses written on it in one scene — further angering some Muslims.
The letter that was pinned to his body was directed at Somali-born Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of the Dutch parliament, who scripted “Submission”. She has repeatedly outraged fellow Muslims by criticizing Islamic customs and the failure of Muslim families to adopt Dutch ways. She, along with another right-wing politician have gone into hiding.
Van Gogh's killing immediately rekindled memories of the 2002 assassination of Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, who polarized the nation with his anti-immigration views — particularly against Moroccan and Turkish immigrants — and was shot to death days before national elections.
Like you (Dave) already mentioned, since Van Gogh’s death a school, churches and Mosques have been burned down, people of both Dutch and Middle Eastern heritage feel (and are being) threatened and there have been political debates on the subject. And you’re correct that they haven’t banned headscarves here in Holland. As you'll understand, it's all very cosy here in our little land of tulips and wooden shoes...
If you're interested, here's link: http://theo-van-gogh.pagina.nl/
All the best,
Frank
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2262
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
Hi Frank,
"As you'll understand, it's all very cosy here in our little land of tulips and wooden shoes... "
By the way, Frank -- why is that the train station in Amsterdam has no toilets?
When I went to London by coach in February, we arrived to Amsterdam very late at night (or early in the morning), and I had to sit on a suitcase and stare on the naked wall for three hours (to 5:00 p.m.), since everything was closed. And no toilets existed.
Why is this? Has there been problems with vandalism in the past?
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 350
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 2:59 pm: | |
Hey there Glenn,
When I studied in Amsterdam a century ago, at the end of the 80’s, I always went there by train and had to get out at Central Station. If I remember well, there were toilets on some of the platforms, but certainly not on all of them. I’m sure there are some urinoirs just outside the station now. Although most of the times I saw to it that I didn’t need a toilet while I was at the station, I remember that it wasn’t too easy to find one when I did ‘have to go’. I don’t know if they have taken away toilets as a result of vandalism – it’s possible, but I don’t know. The reason why everything was closed could be that no trains are scheduled to stop or start there between 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. or something like that, but I don’t know that either.
I just checked the site of our National Railway-site and according to that toilets should be among the facilities present. Well, what can I say, I apologize on behalf of our National Railway company and can only hope you had no need of a toilet.
Funny thing is that the station was under construction at the time Jack took his knife out of his pocket for the first time. It was finished in 1889.
All the best,
Frank
|
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 351
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 3:02 pm: | |
By the way Glenn, it's a pity you didn't get there during the daytime, because then it would have been nice to meet in the flesh.
Take care,
Frank |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2263
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 3:10 pm: | |
Hi Frank,
Is there two stations, then?
This one was a long way outside the city centre, with a very modern environment. There is also a large bus station next to it, where the Euroline bus company has its office.
I can't recall it as an old building.
I asked someone, and they said that the station hadn't have any toilets for years. They didn't say why, but they agreed on that it was quite strange for such a large station to not have such facilities.
No, I wasn't in need of a toilet, so no need to apologise on my account ; I just thought it was a bit strange.
But on the other hand, I couldn't find one in the tube stations in London either.
Maybe Swedes are a spoiled people...?
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3451
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 3:52 pm: | |
Glenn, in London the tube stations ARE toilets.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2265
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 4:16 pm: | |
Ah yes, Robert, that's right. Sorry, I forgot.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 8:07 pm: | |
Natalie: People marched in the USA as well, but how did they vote?
Glenn: I'm a Libertarian, not a Republican. When Democrats get their butts kicked, it gives me no personal pleasure at all. I'm just stating facts. Refute them--if you can.
And I'm not sure what it's like in space--I've never been, "mate", so I can't comment. But I do have an idea what the political climate is in the USA. If you want to discuss that, let me know.
Mr. Linford asks if Bush has visited the troops. He did make a surprise landing in Baghdad on Christmas day (or Thanksgiving?) last year. It was actually quite dramatic and boosted morale considerably. For what it's worth, I have seen some estimates that the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan voted 85% Bush 15% Kerry. I personally think it was probably somewhere closer to 75% to 25%. Still a landslide..
Regards, Vincent |
eliza cline
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 2:07 pm: | |
I will continue to call a spade a spade. I will continue to criticize willful ignorance, and decry hatred and intolerance masquerading as virtue.
Yes, Bush did "fool" the people who voted for him. That much is obvious. His voters believe things that are not true. Period. But it is partly their own fault they were fooled. This is the information age for God's sake. And the Bush voters can't figure out who did 9/11 or that Hussein had no WMD? I reject the idea that we all have to pander to their willful ignornance.
Yes, we need a new Enlightenment. Thomas Jefferson couldn't get elected today because the Fundamentalists would criticize his "bleeding heart liberal" ideas. That being said, John Kerry was not a good candidate (though he would have been a competent president) and wasn't up to the task of taking on the Bush regime. I supported General Clark in the primaries. I think he would have blown Bush away.
Maybe next time we will have the right candidate to take on this disasterously foolish mindset that has taken hold in the US. |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 549
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
Hi, Glenn
Just for you: World Toilet Summit. My first reaction is to laugh, but I guess when I think about it, where would our health be without public toilets? I can think of travelling up a certain creek. . .
Cheers,
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3480
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 11:55 am: | |
Hi Dave
Isn't it asking a bit much for Glenn to hold it until he gets to Beijing?
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 550
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 12:36 pm: | |
Hi, Robert
Ahem, Tennessee ranks 49 out of 50 states in education. Beijing is right next to Glenn's train station in Amsterdam, isn't it?
Cheers,
Dave |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2289
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 1:04 pm: | |
Hi Dave, Robert
I especially loved the caption: "Beijing toilets have been told to clean up their act..."
Well, actually I didn't need a toilet at the time (and I try to avoid public ones) -- it was just something I reflected upon.
Believe me, guys, when your sitting on a suitcase in an empty station hall at 4:00 a.m., and everything's closed, it's amazing what stuff you pick up in order to make time fly... 
"Beijing is right next to Glenn's train station in Amsterdam, isn't it?"
Yeah right, David... if you say so...
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 551
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 2:48 pm: | |
Hi, Glenn
I think the existence of a World Toilet Organization and summit is fascinating--the exhibit hall must be something else. I'm signing President Bush up for Dr. Pin's lecture on "Toilet Culture and Nation Building".
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3484
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 3:20 pm: | |
Dave, tell Bush the Chinese have Weapons of MESS Destruction. That'll get him interested.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2290
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 6:14 pm: | |
Hi Dave,
Great, then we'll finally have some use of him after all.
(I know I stepped into a bee hive with that one...)
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1100
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 10:31 am: | |
Everything P.C., everything in its place:
Tonight, President Chirac of France will be "the guest of Queen Elizabeth at Windsor Castle where 'Les Miserables,' . . . will be staged.
"The venue, the Waterloo Chamber, has been renamed the Music Room for the night in an effort to avoid triumphalism over the 1815 defeat of Napoleon Bonaparte."
BBC News Online, November 18, 2004
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 6:20 pm: | |
I'm against Bush's destruction of the FDR legacy. Progressive income tax, Social Security, space program (via Kennedy), he's against it all. I don't believe the American people are onto what he's up to. Republicans have so co-opted American politics that the truth doesn't get through to the masses anymore. It amazes me how he's co-opted 9/11. Here it was basically HIS fault for not stopping it, and he gets re-elected based on his stance toward it! In sum, we all need to get to be better Europeans.
David
|
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 100
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 10:15 am: | |
Many of us ARE onto it, David, and it's frightening.
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 9:43 pm: | |
Amazing. The Ultra-Right said that when Clinton was re-elected it was the end of the world. Now the Ultra-Left is saying the same thing. I remember the same sort of bilge being spouted back in 1980 when Reagan was elected.
People: Democracy will survive. The Republic will survive. Western Civilization will survive. In four years you will all be agog and awash in hope: Saint Hillary will ascend to her rightful place at the head of The Party and all will be right with the world.
Until the general election, of course. Then She will be soundly trounced by a "Moderate" Republican.
Democrats never learn.
But, until then, relax.
Regards, Vincent |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1126
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 2:15 pm: | |
Hi all
I thought this was good, posted by poet Jack Edwards on a poetry site that I frequent.
All the best
Chris 
*************
Ooh, I'd love to break a long dry spell by penning an absolutely smashing poem to bemoan the election; something grand and historically erudite, yet sly and ironic, in the style of Thomas Lux and "Henry Clay's Mouth."
I would call it "John Ruskin's Honeymoon" -- a keen, metaphorical glimpse at a pivotal moment in the life of the great 19th century art critic, environmentalist, and social thinker; the same strangely fragile idealist who established the Guild of St. George to "dress the earth and keep it, feed human lips, clothe human bodies, kindle human souls." The brilliant thinker whose life was altered terrifically when, on the brink of consummating the marriage, he discovered -- to his absolute horror -- that his wife had pubic hair.
But then, if you've read one anti-bush poem, you've read 'em all.
Jack
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Lindsey Millar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 77
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 5:00 pm: | |
Ooooohhhh, Chris!!
Took me a minute, but I geddit now!
Bestest,
Lyn |
Eliza Cline
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 9:47 pm: | |
True, partisans are always a mite hysterical when the other side takes power. I remember a lot of hysteria during the Reagan and Clinton years. But neither Reagan nor Clinton screwed up as badly as Bush. They were competent leaders who knew better than to start a reckless war without just cause, in a region that can best be described as a tinderbox. Bush has dropped a match into that tinderbox and we still don't know all the ramifications.
We have killed upwards of 20,000 innocent civilians in Iraq--a war we didn't have to fight. We stepped right into the propaganda of the extremists in the Middle East. (Bush seems intent on proving that we are indeed 'The Great Satan.') Think about it--we lost about 5,000 on 9/11. Think of our trauma and outrage over that incident. Think of how we were all out for blood over what happened. Well, the Iraqis have lost around five times that many innocent lives. You know there will be some retaliation for that terrible slaughter. I am frightened to think what Bush through his recklessness will bring down on all our heads.
Meantime, the ruthless Al Quaeda network who actually did attack our country has been allowed to regroup and rejuvenate themselves.
I think this time the hysteria may be justified. |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 6:36 pm: | |
Eliza:
"They (Reagan and Clinton)were competent leaders who knew better than to start a reckless war without just cause, in a region that can best be described as a tinderbox."
Clinton commited troops to the Balkans--I cannot think of a more volatile region than that. Yet the USA and NATO stopped Genocide. Reagan stared down the "Evil Empire" and they blinked. He won the cold war (along with Thatcher) I can't think of a greater "tinderbox" than that.
To win great rewards you must risk great stakes.
Would you agree that if a democracy can be built in Iraq it would be a positive thing? Think of it: a Middle Eastern country where a woman doesn't have to wear a veil unless she wants to. Wow-she can vote too! And a man is not coerced into voting by getting beaten with a cane across his feet. (Ever seen that footage?)
I don't know. Maybe Bush, Blair, Howard and Co. are dreaming. Maybe there is no place in the Middle East where such a dream is possible. But somehow I think Iraq is going to have a chance. If they fail it will be their failure. If they don't get that chance then it won't be the fault of the USA and the UK.
At least we tried. Chirac and Schroeder didn't even do that. The shame is theirs.
Regards, Vince
|
Eliza Cline
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 5:07 pm: | |
Reagan "stared down" the Evil Empire--he didn't pick one of its satellites at random and invade it, without studying the ramifications and without an understanding of the culture and all the simmering ethnic tensions beneath the surface. The Cold War was won with propaganda. And it helped that Gorbachev was a fundamentally decent man who didn't have the will to continue to impose tyrannical rule.
Surely you don't mean to compare the Iraq mess with the Serb war, which was a model of force in conjunction with diplomacy, international suport,and careful and meticulous planning for the post war phase. That brief and relatively painless confict is surely the polar opposite of the current quagmire.
I think it would be great if we could somehow wave our magic wand and transform every dictatorship into a democracy, but it just doesn't work that way. We in the US did not have democracy imposed on us from without. We conceived of it and fought and won it for ourselves.
And in this time of terrorism we really don't have the luxury of picking a mideast county and treating it as some sort of lab experiment for democracy. We have been attacked by Al Quaeda,a completely different entity who is bent on our destruction. George Bush has crippled our efforts to go after that entity.
|
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
