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malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 6:22 pm: | 
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yes julia you're quite right, Todd was and is highly popular and the fictional essay is still very enjoyable, i love it....it'll be on line soon...Todd is all over the web, if you do a search on google you'll see what i mean. Todd saw the light of day in 1847 so Jack probably did know, if he was interested in horror publications that is..but i dont see a connection between the two because as far as Todd goes killing women was out of order...it was rich gents he hated...in fact, anyone with money. but Todd was also a fog bound shadow lurking cutthroat killer too, so there's definitely a connection there..
yes Haining is famous and he's a good author as well, i actually like his book but it's a well known hoax...its not just me that's saying this, on the `penny dreadful` yahoo group, Haining's about as popular as the Black Death...
as to who was Jack i'd rather read the postings than get involved, could be anybody; my favourite has always been George Chapman...yes i know what the experts say here but there's something strange about him....something we're all missing, its a shame i deleted my ripper essay because i explained it all there..but it became a confusing mess in the end ha ha! |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:50 am: |
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yes but Haining quotes his book as factual when he knows it's not, this is misleading on purpose; in my opinion this is deceitful and others think so too. yes you're right i'm no qualified historian, but i certrainly dont have a lack of historical analytical skills, i've done loads of research here...that's how i know its a hoax. i noticed quite a few things weren't right in his book and this triggered me to start searching for Todd in historical archives. very few members of the public will have historical knowledge of 18th century london but like me they'll smell a rat, it's then that you have to do your research..
it would be impossible to hoax Todd successfully, because if you do find proof you have to quote your sources accurately so that others can check them and haining hasn't done so, this caught my attention immediately.
if i quote my essay as factual, when it's clearly not because i have no proof; i can tell you for a fact i'd get called a ball******* in my home email...many times.
but i do have to agree with you on one point, Haining's book is a good read, he's a good author but when he quotes factual, this is asking for trouble because somebody like me is bound to follow up on this.
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Stephen Leece
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 3:14 pm: |
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Is it not fair to assume that Haining has been swept up by his own enthusiasm for the project and made mistakes that perhaps a more careful and objective researcher would not have made? Another point is, (and I have fallen foul of this), be careful not to criticise an author for not properly referencing his sources because sometimes the publisher does not allow extensive footnotes and bibliographies. I made this mistake a couple of years ago with a Scottish historian writing about the Picts and am still finding myself the butt of the jokes on the Medieval history circuit. |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 12:47 pm: |
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yes it was a big mistake to attack Haining as much as i have here, because i'm nowhere near as good an author as he is...so i'm inviting trouble when i upload mine.
what i have done is to remove personal attacks from my essay, because your comments tell me this is a wise thing to do, plus its out of order anyway....in addition i'm hoping Haining might contact me, because i do have to say this....a part of me still believes it's true even though the research tells you fictional.i'm noticing things even now that dont make sense
but i cant identify them, if it's fictional; there's something not right in the legend and it's staring me in the face...but what on earth is it?
But my character portrayal in a new book by him would be much better for the legend of Todd....because the big criticism on Amazon.com book reviews and this is genuine problem...is that haining doesn't describe Todd's personality...this is why i did the essay, so its better for all concerned that my essay attacks nobody by name....only the legend itself, which i have to anyway; because i've actually found an illustration of his shop in 1797 that blows part of the legend out of the water!
Dickens mentions Todd (but not by name) 3 years before Penny Dreadful....yes he probably knew Prest.....but `string of pearls` wouldn't take 3 years to write!...it's things like this that make you wonder...and me moving his shop to its better location (because i had to); i.e the other side of ST DUNSTAN'S, makes the other part of the legend work perfectly, that didn't before. so something very strange is going on. |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 6:16 pm: |
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right now i'm trying to trace the shop owners of 186 and 187 fleet st in the year 1790, this shouldn't be too hard.....i've already found illustrations of each of these shops, plus a good map....i'll contact my friend at winchester library tomorrow, he's a Todd fan as well....to be honest i dont want to know because it wont be todd and once i find out it'll spoil the legend....i know who the shop owners were in the 1830s but this is too late, it has to be the 1790s.....oh hell..do i really want to know?...lets keep the legend alive; the element of doubt. |
Joshua St Johnston
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 12:50 pm: |
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Don't be disheartened, Malcolm. Still sounds like you've done great research. But what do you mean about the shop being wrong? Do you mean the location of 186? But why should we be stuck with the idea that Sweeney was based there? And what other bit of the legend does the new location help with? |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:37 pm: |
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sweeney_Todd/
please join this yahoo group |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 2:27 pm: |
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thedemonbarber/
sorry the other link was wrong...this one should be correct |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:13 pm: |
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hi joshua
i've found an etching of his shop dated 1797, it was a 4 storey Georgian and not a dilapidated Elizabethan (fact)...i dont think the legend is right, more likely to be 187 fleet st...186 fleet st is too risky for committing murder....this mass-murderer if even he existed, was definitely not called sweeney todd. up to about 8 shops are close enough to the catacombs and any one of these the demon barber's....the essay will be ready soon.
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I Sawyer
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 2:01 am: |
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Sweeney Todd was based on the Terrific Story of the Rue de la Harpe at Paris. Rymer based String of Pearls on this story. |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 11:59 am: |
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of course the problem with Chapman as the Ripper is the fact that there was only one victim in the U.S.A and this was very close to his arrival there as well and also no mutilations when he arrived back here in the U.K...this needs some careful thought and a very good explanation. For Chapman to be the Ripper i really do think we need more mutilations after Whitechapel, he's still my favourite; but i do realise this tends to rule him out. Poisonings and mutilations at the same time makes sense, but not poisonings only....i can give reasons why and they too make sense, but it needs to be explained carefully in a future essay |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 11:30 am: |
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it's interesting to note that both Sweeney Todd and George Chapman were barbers and i expect Chapman had a basement too. As i've always said Chapman was connected in some way or other to knives and anybody that could share a house with his lovers while watching them die in excruciating agony is quite capable of carving them up too...i see no problem with Chapman as the Ripper, none whatsoever; in my opinion he's by far the strongest suspect. He's one of these suspects that's always there or abouts, there's something odd about him...dont tell me if these weren't his wives (that everybody else knew) that he wouldn't have mutilated them...he almost did to one of them didn't he! he simply couldn't mutilate them, too obvious he's the Ripper and only a fool would.....my next research is to try and find other chapman victims out there on the streets in the U.S.A; of course i dont think there are any....i need another posting in the main Ripper areas here |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 11:18 am: |
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yes sweeney Todd might have been based on this earlier Rue de la Harpe story....but is this story factual, where's the proof...or was it created after Prest wrote sweeney todd?...much more research is needed, because the Rue de la Harpe story seems even more fictional than Todd. |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 8:09 pm: |
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yes you're right I Sawyer, Sweeney Todd is based on the ``Rue de la Harpe`` murders. |
Joshua St Johnston
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |
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Malcolm, I've a question for you about dates. In the People's Periodical story of Sweeney Todd (which Helen Smith convincingly argues is by Jack Rymer not Thomas Prest), we are told that the story is set when George III was a young man. He became king in 1760, aged 20ish, and even though he lived a long time, he could no longer be considered young by 1780. Could he? So if we are to follow that version of the story, shouldn't you be looking for a barber shop on Fleet Street a good twenty to thirty years earlier? After all, the Rymer version describes the end of Todd's career. |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 1:36 pm: |
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yes this could be the case Joshua, but this play was still written in about 1846..which puts it after the ``rue de la harpe murders`` which according to my research is also fictional..yes it was indeed written by Rymer, my mistake; there are lots of mistakes and confusion in the story of todd...i think you'll find that it was an 1846 play as said, but maybe set twenty years earlier than haining's version. even so we have no proof of todd's existance, because my search criteria wasn't limited to any particular date anyway....if you have an interest in todd like i do, join my yahoo club above....i've quite a bit of stuff there, plus we're doing an illustration of fleet st....but at the moment due to so many changes like this, my essay is evolving all the time.
i'm having trouble with the Todd ending, mine is based on hainings book but i was hoping to portray todd escaping the hangman's noose....not easy, because todd's got to realise that the Runners are onto him after the murder of Thornhill/ stench at St Dunstans. and at the moment i cant make it work. |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 12:32 pm: |
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20 to 30 years earlier would also make it virtually impossible to trace his shop as well, its bad enough in 1794, his shop could have been opposite st dunstans....i'm stating its fiction otherwise i'll make a total fool of myself; but even so something's still not right, he was probably wasn't called Todd and the records wiped clean and probably before the ``rue de la harpe``.
`rue de la harpe` was stated to be first maybe to throw us off Todd's trail....what bothers me is the wording "based on fact" in string of pearls.
maybe it means nothing, we'll probably never know |
Matthew Howard
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 3:04 am: |
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My aunt, who was English and completely fascinated with all things macabre, once told me that Todd was based on something that really happened in Germany- doesn't todd mean death in German??? No idea about the derivation of his first name- or how accurate my dear Aunty's info was. |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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its certainly a strange name isn't it ``sweeney todd``, its very sinister and both sweeney and todd are very rare as well, even rarer than my name (lol). yes there is also a German legend a bit like `rue de la harpe` |
Stephen Leece
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 6:07 pm: |
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Sweeney comes from the Gaelic 'Suibhne'- used as a first name. 'Sawney' as in 'Sawney Bean' is likely to be an Anglicisation of the Gaelic Sweeney/ Suibhne (Suibhne is pronounced the same as 'Sweeney'). This would indicate to me a common source for the two stories, possibly Gaelic, but not necessarily so. Just a thought if anyone's interested in taking this any further.... |
malcolm macdougall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 3:38 pm: |
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yes these 4 stories would have been written at about similar times and by authors who knew each other...i.e they worked for `penny dreadful`,
of all of them i expect Todd is the most realistic because its the greatest of all four mysteries...who knows! these authors would've also known Charles Dickens as well...they probably all met in the taverns in Fleet st.
they talked about a murderous barber that once existed in fleet st years ago and dreamt up the name sweeney todd, to hide the killers true identity.
this was about 1846 and the killer probably hung in 1780, of course it would've been hushed up, but they still needed to hide his true identity!
my hunch is its a true story and the legend is accurate...just a different name and further back in time...finally, hung for only one murder...grand total; probably about 200 victims.
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knowledgeoflondon
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 7:16 am: |
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http://knowledgeoflondon.com/sweeny.html
This is a good site for Sweeney Todd with local pictures as well. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 343
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 8:43 pm: |
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Hi all,
I remember reading an account some time back that stated that "Sweeney Todd" is listed in the Newgate Calendar, although, his name in that 200-year-old true crime publication is spelled a bit differently.
The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers says that he was hanged on JA 25 of 1802.
Goodies,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 344
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 9:04 pm: |
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P.S.
The name in The Newgate Calendar might have been Oseeny Toddf.
Stan |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 385
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 12:37 pm: |
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I happened to buy Hainings 'Sweeney Todd' some years ago and was facinated to see the reference to him being incarcerated in Newgate.
I also happen to have 'The Chronicles of Newgate' by Arthur Griffiths, 1987. I think it is still the definitive work and I can assure you that Sweeney Todd nowhere appears in that volume, nor any name which remotely resembles it.
Regards, Jon
We talk of things as wrong or right, or clear as night and day.
But life is rarely black and white, but multiple shades of grey.
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 364
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 9:01 pm: |
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Hi Jon,
I have that reference in my archives here somewhere but it would probably take quite some time to find it. As I recall, the guy claimed to have complete editions of The Newgate Calendar which I understood him to assert came in several different versions. I'll try to locate the source.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 386
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 11:02 am: |
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Stan, do you think you could locate the source which suggests that Sweeney Todd was listed at Newgate?
Thats the source that needs to be verified.
Thanks, Jon
We talk of things as wrong or right, or clear as night and day.
But life is rarely black and white, but multiple shades of grey.
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 370
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
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Hi Jon,
I can't find that source. Maybe it was in a book at the library. I promise, it did say that it was in The Newgate Calendar or one of its clones. Of course, just because someone wrote it doesn't make it true.
I'm fairly certain that the claim was that Todd's real name was Oseeney Toddf. There is a web site that also gives this as an alternate name for Todd but I don't know their source for that either.
If I ever do stumble across that article, I will post it on here for whatever it's worth.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1938
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 8:20 am: |
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Guys
For those of you who are interested....
....http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/09_september/12/todd.shtml
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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