| Author |
Message |
    
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2934
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 11:51 am: | 
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Although unconnected to the actual case of the Whitechapel Murderer, while reading through various volumes from the LVP, I have actually just come across a hand written and signed annotation from Chief Inspector Littlechild in this 1889 volume.
The annotation concerns the attempted bombing of the Mansion House in May 1882 and the reward of £500 that was offered for the capture of the men involved.
Has anyone ever seen this before? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5362
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 2:20 pm: |
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I haven't, AP, but hey, what do I know? (lapsed into AP mode there).
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5365
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 4:02 pm: |
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Here is AP's find. I have attempted to enlarge the annotation.
Robert
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5366
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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AP's sent a second one.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 207
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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I recognise the book AP but I totally missed that bit!
Was he making corrections here to Charles T. Clarkson's work? I can't make out what is written. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5367
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:13 pm: |
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Debra, here it is so far as I can make it out.
This is not correct, the perpetrators of this offence were traced by Old Scotland Yard to Paris but there being no chance of getting them extradited they were not arrested. They were frightened and driven out of France (I personally took a prominent part in this with Mr Williamson) in Paris. One of the conspirators (illeg) O’Connor(?) was arrested (illeg) in London by me in connection with other explosions (?) and sentenced to twenty years penal servitude
JG Littlechild
(illeg)
And the other one :
three men were (illeg) to a house two
brothers named (illeg) from Chicago(?) and (illeg) who had only been
in America a few years (rest illeg)
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2263
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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The first passage seems to read as follows:
This is not correct, the perpetrators of this offence were traced by Old Scotland yard to Paris but there being no chance of getting them extradited they were not arrested. They were frightened and driven out of France (I personally took a prominent part in this with Mr. Williamson) in Paris.
One of the conspirators, Jack O'Connor, was arrested in London by me in connection with other explosions and sentenced to twenty years penal servitude.
J G Littlechild
Ex Chief Insp.
I cannot make out the two words inserted on the third line from bottom |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2936
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
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Thanks Robert, much appreciated.
Yes, Debra, I thought you might recognise the volume.
Don’t trust search engines is my advice.
The volume in question is ‘Police!’ by Clarkson & Richardson, published in London in 1889, but the particular copy I have been looking at is locked in the archives of the Harvard Law Library and has been for a very long time; and it is obviously Littlechild’s personal copy.
My access to this volume has been purely electronic.
There are other smaller annotations by Littlechild, including a date and signature on the last page of the volume. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2264
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
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This is what I make of the second section:
Three men were blown to atoms - two brothers named Donovan from Chicago and Jack Fleming who have only been in America a few years and formerly lived at Rotherhithe.
J G L |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5368
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
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Thanks for those transcriptions, Chris.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 208
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
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AP,please don't get us locked out, it's happened before!
I use the resource for many other things and it's invaluable for my daughters uni course...shhhhh...please?
(Message edited by dj on December 09, 2005) |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2937
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Sorry, Debra, but this one might have been worth it. Because... it does show us that information is still out there which could and should change our entire view of this situation.
And I promise you that I will sort it should the resource be compromised.
You know my debts to you, Debra, are legion.
My thanks to you girl. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 991
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 9:24 pm: |
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Hello all,
Nice work by A.P. and Chris. But I'm a little confused by "Littlechild's" second comment: The London Bridge explosion killed Jack Fleming but he was killed with Mackay Losmaney on 13 December 1884. The story also appears in Henri Le Caron's TWENTY-FIVE YEARS IN THE SECRET SERVICE, 6th edition 1892, pp. 100-102; John
Sweeney's AT SCOTLAND YARD, 1905, pp. 23-8; I.L.N. 20 Dec.1884 p. 601. Where did he get the two brothers named Donavan?
Best wishes,
Jeff Bloomfield |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 209
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 6:47 am: |
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Ok AP, I'll chill then, you are right. I am sure there is much more information to be found and actually I am really glad you are searching for it and passing it on, not much escapes you!
Hi Jeff
Littlechild does seem to be incorrect in his corrections.
Fleming was killed along with two brothers named Mackay and Michael Lomasney, not Donovan. |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 442
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 7:31 am: |
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This is fascinating stuff!
This sort of thing gives me hope that one day we might actually crack this case.
Bob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5369
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 8:14 am: |
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Here is the last one. It looks like "Something by me." 'Assisted'?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5370
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 8:24 am: |
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The last page, signed and dated - American-style, apparently.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2702
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 11:05 am: |
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Extraordinary finds these.Many thanks Ap,Robert,Debra,Chris and for that input from Jeffrey.
Bob is right-its very encouraging to have contemporaneous documentation like this.
The name Fleming....called John Fleming in "Fenian Fire' by Christy Campbell.He lived in Rotherhithe dock area,South of the river but close to Mile End where Mary Kelly" ex allegedly lived.
Also note there is a reference to the Whitechapel murders in the index.
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2938
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 11:28 am: |
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Thanks again, Robert.
Yes,Debra, Natalie and Bob, it is indeed rewarding to know that something as important as this - that has been laying around for years - can still be found quite by accident.
I was looking for information on 'police beats' when I stumbled upon it.
It does seem that almost all the senior officers at Scotland Yard who were connected to the Whitechapel Murders had this urgent desire to scribble and make annotations in volumes relating to the case, so I too believe that the case will ultimately be cracked wide open by another such chance discovery.
It is entirely possible that somewhere in a dusty archive or bookshop is a similar volume with crucial annotations by someone as important to the case as Charles Henry Cutbush.
Now that would be the find of the century!
I must say this 'find' does make me very optimistic about the final outcome of the case. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5371
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 11:53 am: |
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Yes, a book annotated by Charles Cutbush...the Druitt inquest papers...anything can turn up (and probably will). And with the apparent booming trade in JTR memorabilia, people are less likely to chuck such things away as "mouldy old rubbish."
Great find, AP.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2941
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
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Well spotted, Natalie.
The reference to the Whitechapel Murders is in a chapter devoted to common lodging houses, but sadly Littlechild did not feel obliged to pass comment.
However the chapter is stuffed full of interesting and useful detail regarding the policing of such establishments, and CH Cutbush’s position and branch is mentioned - but not his name - in connection with this.
At some time I’ll see if I can’t cooperate with Robert in posting the material here, it is quite lengthy, but does provide detail and information on the policing policy and action for such establishments during the LVP which I don’t think we have seen before. |
Belindafromhenmans
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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A super intrigue, but be careful. It might be him, he might be being impersonated. Well done. It strikes me as a little unlikely that a Special Branch expert would blab his views about.
...The writing is alot like Gull's! |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3383
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
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Wonderful stuff BUT.........dont hold your breath Bob!
Suzi x |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 994
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 9:24 pm: |
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Hi everyone,
Before we congradulate ourselves for reaching proof that the next piece of evidence is just around the corner, hidden in an attic, or in a second hand book shop, or in a library's collections, let us please try to keep a degree of reality here.
1) We need to find evidence that is useful - let us seek useful rather than conclusive. One reaches the stratisphere before reaching the moon and beyond.
2) We need to analyze whatever writing turns up - I won't say a word for or against certain controvertial "discoveries" of the last decade, but note the amount of discussion on them to this day.
3) Just to recall how easy paper is lost and records destroyed, and for the pleasure of a delightfully interesting read, tackle Professor Richard Altick's first important book: THE SCHOLAR ADVENTURERS. It includes cases of great discoveries that changed views on literary figures (James Bothwell's large number of journals for example). It also tells the story of the incredible losses of papers of all sorts in the last six hundred years.
I hate putting a damper on this thread - but one has to be realistic. Congradulations again on the discovery.
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 498
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 3:33 am: |
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Hello A. P.,
And all fellow Optimists.
Firstly, well done A.P., great find, I think.
Let's all put in and buy EBay! Then we can scrutinise every biography or police history ever
published by some retired Scotland Yard wolloper
of the Late Victorian/Early Edwardian era.
Echoing Jeffrey's sobering comment: we are sitting ducks for a scribbled piece of "evidence"
proving Lewis Carroll was really Charlie Cutbush.
However, I am an incorrigible Optimist.So I believe that there are still further bits of enlightening information out there waiting patiently to be discovered.
The importance of this Littlechild scribble, (and someone needs to verify his handwriting -are you there Stewart?)is to cross-check his accuracy on other cases.Thereby providing a benchmark for future Littlechild Letters or marginalia.
So, let's to it Fellow Sleuthers! Check every LVP police biography in your local library or bigger.
Me, I'll search for marginalia in Australia. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3385
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 8:26 am: |
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Optimistic!!!!!!!! what else can we be 'eh????
Right this Flemming-Fleming may be worth a look!!
Littlechild seems to have been a serial 'marginaliaist' though!!!
Mind you I am too.....
OK can this handwriting be verified?
Suzi |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2948
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |
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Thanks folks, I remain an optimist simply because I walked - electronically - into a library, booked out a volume not directly linked to the case, to check out information on police beats and lodging houses and instead found several hand-written, and I believe unseen, annotations by one of the most senior officers involved in the case.
Now the chances of this happening are bordering on the miracle level, but it did happen, and that is why I am so positive it will happen again, and again.
We have only just started to push our way into what has been previously been the private garden of a few old gardeners who have failed grievously to encourage the spread of luscious growth in that garden and have instead tended a few old weeds, which they refuse to pull out of the ground and throw on the compost heap.
Well, the new gardeners are here, and I for one intend to open that garden gate to everyone.
In the last year we have seen an astonishing amount of information emerging from this new resource and weapon we call the internet, and that information is striking right at the heart of the material the ‘experts’ have been feeding us with for years.
Things are moving fast and they are going to get faster.
Given the location of the volume I would have thought that it is without question that the annotations are the true work of the person who signed those annotations as his own. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2953
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 1:38 pm: |
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Just to add that the volume in question was deposited in the Harvard Law Library on the 29th January 1924. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5378
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 3:51 pm: |
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Yes, AP, it didn't look like his initials at the end, I must say. But with my eyes...anyway, that stuff at the end was the deposit-date, was it? That would make sense - a year after Littlechild died.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2955
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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Quite right, Robert, I believe that the signature and date at the end matches the deposit date at the front of the volume.
My mistake.
However the earlier signature on the main annotation is a diamond.
As we will see in due course. |
Andrew Spallek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1022
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 5:40 pm: |
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May I ask a simple question? How long has the British convention of writing dates in the form dd/mm/yy been in practice? It it odd that Littlechild would date this note in the "American style", i.e. mm/dd/yy, or was this a common practice in his day even in England?
If this mm/dd/yy style was distinctly American in 1914, then we could couple this with his mention of Chicago and perhaps see a connection to Littlechild's interest in the American suspect, Tumblety.
Andy S. |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 835
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 7:09 pm: |
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I have a photographic reproduction of the Littlechild letter in front of me. Of course, this letter was typewritten except for where Littlechild made corrections, but the handwriting on those corrections seems to match perfectly to me. Particularly the signature, and if anyone else has it look at where Littlechild has written the words "This was in 1906" at the bottom of page two, the handwriting on the word "This" matches absolutely with the word "This" at the beginning of the first excerpt posted here. I would have no hesitation in saying that this was quite definitely Littlechild's handwriting.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me" - Hunter S. Thompson (1939-2005)
Visit my website - http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2958
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
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Thanks for that, Alan.
Is there anyway that you can put up the two signatures on the boards so that we can have a look?
Incidentally there is one more page I must post to Robert and then on to here, no scribbling on the page but someone has marked certain passages with thick, black vertical lines, and this might be of interest to those studying Littlechild's involvement with Fenians etc. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1713
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 1:22 pm: |
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Hi Andrew et al.
Andrew, if you look at the Jack the Ripper letters in Stewart and Keith's Jack the Ripper: Letters from Hell, the date is given in both forms on those communications that are dated, both month first and day first, depending on the particular letter. Since most of these letters were probably written by Britons it shows that both forms of date were in use at the time, despite the commonly held view that day, month, year is British usage.
Folks, it looks to me that the notation on the last page of the index is possibly a notation of the library the book came from, as in "Ex Libris" since the first part is definitely "Ex". Doesn't it also look as if the date is January 29, 1924, which corresponds with the date AP said the book was deposited in the Harvard Law Library?
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5381
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 1:33 pm: |
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These are the markings.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2960
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 2:01 pm: |
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Working through the volume ‘Police!’ from 1889 a few more times, I do note that someone has been lightly marking text with vertical strokes the whole way through, most often when the text concerns the early formation of the Metropolitan Police, or text concerning court decisions. Also noted is that when the Whitechapel Murderer and vigilante committees are mentioned in a very early chapter then the scribbler - whoever he is - broadens these light marks into quite dense marks.
Now as a writer I do know what this means.
It means that someone with an ambition to write a book is reading what went before and stealing the relevant information for their own book.
And when the writer mentions a case that was their own then they get bold.
‘Police!’ was published in 1889 by Clarkson, and Littlechild’s volume in 1894, and I believe a careful study of both volumes will show that this copy of ‘Police!’ was Littlechild’s personal template for his own volume.
The little tinker!
I’m on the case. |
Andrew Spallek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1023
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 3:13 pm: |
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Thanks, Chris. I thought I remembered seeing it written by Britons both ways. That's probably where. Must have been very confusing to have both conventions in use at the same place in the same time!
Still, it might be interesting to know whether Littlechild seemed to have an interest in America as that could explain his preference for an American suspect.
Andy S. |
Belindafromhenmans
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:36 am: |
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Not that you'd know better than anyone else, Alan, whether it is or isn't Littlechild's signature, as is proved time and time again.
Whether it is or not, seems to have little to do with it? The case he notes, seems to have little or nothing to do with the Whitechapel murders. As an SpB Officer, it is pretty natural that his views on covert operations would differ from those in the public domain and in the libraries. He was part of those operations. 1/1000 have anything to do with the Ripper. |
ADT
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 1:48 am: |
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Well, you would expect it to resemble Littlechild's handwriting, wouldn't you? Seems very 'reminiscent' of the Swanson marginalia to me, different subject matter though. |
