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John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 92
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 3:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Apparently around the middle of 1889 in London, there was press reference (I do not know the source), to the possibility that the Ripper might be dead.
Allegedly an anonymous communication was received by the authorities seeking to refute that claim; using a line from a well-known hymn of the time...

"He Is Not Dead But Liveth"...

Can anyone give me a written source which mentions this occurence?
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris

Post Number: 394
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 7:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi John
The quote in your post is biblical in origin:

He is not dead, but liveth (Luke 16:19-31)

Regards
Chris
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Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100

Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think "He is not dead, but liveth" does occur in that passage (the parable of the rich man and Lazarus), but the phrase may ultimately be based on the biblical, "She is not dead but sleepeth" (Luke 8:52 - Jairus's daughter).

Chris Phillips
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Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 76
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think John was looking for a reference to the communication, rather than the quasi-Biblical reference. Unfortunately, I don't know of it offhand.

The phrase "He is not dead, but liveth" does not occur in the King James Version of the Bible (nor any other translation of which I am aware). It could of course be a line from a hymn, in which case is would almost certainly be a reference to the risen Christ.

There is also this reference from Shakespeare:

To prove him tyrant this reason may suffice,
That Henry liveth still: but were he dead,
Yet here Prince Edward stands, King Henry's son.
(King Henry VI, Part III Act III, Scene III)

Andy

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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris

Post Number: 403
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry for the wrong reference- it was actually from an obituary from 1926 which was interspersed with biblical references but seems to eb making moral points rather than giving origin of quotes. the relevant part sounds almost like a quote from a poem:
He is not dead, but liveth (Luke 16:19-31) and has been taken by the Angels
into Abrahams bosom. He is not lost, but only gone before.

He regarded
Death as the most beautiful adventure in life and approached it like one

Full details of the obituary are at
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/MERIWETHER/2002-01/1010619026
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John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 93
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 6:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you Chris Scott for the Biblical sources.
And thanks too Chris Phillips.
Andrew was correct, my ambiguously expressed request for a "source" referred to the happenings around mid 1889 when authorities aparently received this missive.
Is it mentioned in LETTERS FROM HELL or THE ULTIMATE SOURCEBOOK ?
Do any Ripperology books refer to this letter?
The significance of this communication will not be lost when we realise Albert Bachert (at about this time) is supposed to have received police intimation that the Ripper was now dead and to call his dogs off.
My own authority for these happenings, is a letter to me from a now, long-dead Ripperologist. who like Chris in Baltimore, held great store in the useful discovery of valuable Ripper stories in far-flung British newspapers.
My colleague, the late Eric Hermes, held great story in THE CHELTENHAM GAZETTE and THE LIVERPOOL ECHO! (Long before more recent Liverpool focus!).
Perhaps some Hymnologist can confirm the quoted line is a distorted version of the above Bible quotes, and Chris's poem, which has possibly morphed into a line from a hymn.

So, it appears I wanted both "sources" after all.

Thanks for the help.

But don't all give up just yet.
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John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 94
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 6:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greetings All,
I have finally located my late colleague's letter referred to above which mentions the anonymous JTR missive denying the Ripper is dead.
The relevant quote from my friend's letter is
" ..this item appeared on 14th February, 1891, when THE GLOUCESTER JOURNAL was giving an account of the murder the previous day" (Frances Cole) :
'' it said ' that only last week a statement had been put out that Jack the Ripper had committed suicide'.
" I am reminded very much of similar rumours being circulated at the first half of 1889, culminating in the letter quoting ' He is not dead, but liveth' and in the murder within two or three days of Elizabeth Jackson and the baby "..

Not sure what he meant by the last bit, but there you are.

Elizabeth Jackson's body was found in the Thames between 31st May and 25 June 1889. There was no apparent link to the Ripper killings.

So, if we can locate the JTR letter quoting the above line, press reports might throw light on Bachert's claim the police told him in early 1889, the Ripper was dead.

Any ideas Chris the newspaper guru?
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris

Post Number: 406
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John
thanks for the source of this story. Unfortunately the Gloucester Jornal is not available on line but I did find this quote on the British Library site:

The Gloucester Journal and Gloucestershire Chronicle may be viewed on microfilm at Gloucester City Library and the Gloucestershire Echo and Cheltenham Journal and Gloucestershire Gazette at Cheltenham Reference Library and my thanks go to the staff at both libraries for their continued help

The Library's own site lists what they hold:
The Gloucestershire Collection at Gloucester Library was founded in 1900 and collects material relating to every aspect of the county


The Gloucestershire Collection can be used at any time when Gloucester Library is open (follow the link to the right).
The Library holds over 200,000 items including:
Books, pamphlets and newspapers, especially the Gloucester Journal from 1722 and The Citizen from 1876 - mostly on microfilm
Cuttings files
Photographs, prints, tapes and slides
Census returns for Gloucestershire 1841 to 1901 on microfilm
Electoral lists for Gloucester from 1832 and partial sets for the rest of the county to 1937
Access to the 1901 Census via the internet - 5 vouchers available to download items
Maps - Ordnance survey, historical, geological and specialist
Books on family history and genealogy

Well worth a visit but unfortunately far from where I am
I will continue to see if anything of value is available online
Chris
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Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100

Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did try to look at the Gloucester Journal article when I was last at Colindale, but unfortunately the original was too fragile to produce. I presume that the report was connected with the Bristol Times and Mirror report a few days before, quoting the rumours being spread by a West of England MP that the Ripper was a surgeon's son who had committed suicide. Possibly it was just a regurgitation of that report.

Chris Phillips

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John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 95
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 6:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you Chris Scott.And thanks Chris Phillips.
From what Chris Phillips says, it looks as if Colindale Newspaper Library does not yet hold a microfilm copy of THE GLOUCESTER JOURNAL.
I agree with what Chris P. says about the JTR -is -dead rumour of 1890.It is possibly an echo of the West country Member of Parliament's theory.
But I am also curious about the earlier airing of the JTR-is-dead line the previous year.
Possibly, it too was mentioned in THE GLOUCESTER JOURNAL..
All we can hope is that some American newspaper picked up the story from a London journal.
Thanks for offering to pursue the trail further,
Chris Scott.
Anyone out there know a Hymn savant?
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Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 81
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I could probably do some checking in Anglican Hymnals for the line in question. I'm quite familiar with hymnody from my tradition, but that's not Anglican.

But would it serve any purpose to know what, if any, hymn this line comes from?

Andy
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert

Post Number: 595
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Andy

I checked one hymn website but couldn't find it. The trouble is, it doesn't have to be a hymn - it could be from one of the Fathers, or even from a secular poem.

Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert

Post Number: 596
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all

A reasonably close match, text-wise and time-wise, is at http://www.ccel.org/s/spurgeon/sermons37/htm

Click TOC.htm and go to Sermon 2186, end of second paragraph.

Spurgeon was a Nonconformist who died 1892.

Robert
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Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 84
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 8:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just did quick Yahoo and Jeeves searches for the phrase "he is not dead but liveth." Both turned up two different types of occurrances. A handful of sermon citations, similar to that of Spurgeon above, came up. Indeed, this is such a basic message of the Scriptures regarding Christ that I am certain it has been spoken thousands and thousands of times from various pulpits.

The other type of occurrance that came up was obituaries and headstones, referring to the deceased, i.e. that he is not dead but lives in heaven.

Paradoxically, if the author of this unknown letter was using the obit/headstone usage, the meaning would be that the Ripper had indeed died (but is now in heaven -- perhaps referring to a later, even "deathbed" conversion and repentance or perhaps in a perverse belief that his killing of protitutes was a "righteous" act).

In short, I think the letter is meaningless insofar as knowledge of the truth is concerned.

Andy
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John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 98
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 3:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Andy and Robert,
Yes, if the line is taken from a well-known preacher's published repertoire - and let's not forget preachers were like pop stars in those days- then the anonymous writer is just showing how witty he can be.
On the other hand, as Andy points out,using a well-known obituarist's line to say someone is still extant, is even more witty.
But as you say, ultimately, useless for us.
I prefer the simple idea : the Ripper is saying don't close the book yet, I'm still active. I am not dead (as they claim) but alive and raring to go again! Scare, Scare...
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Maryanne
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

lmao! I think I prefer that idea too John! In a sinister way taunting people yet again who dismiss all his communications as hoaxes!
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 558
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

According to Harrison, p. 237:

A paper-covered booklet, containing a sermon preached in Sandringham Church on the Sunday after Eddy's funeral, bears this inscription in his father's hand: "To my dearest Wife, in remembrance of our beloved Eddy who was taken from us. 'He is not dead, but sleepeth.' From her devoted but broken-hearted husband, Bertie.'"

Not the exact quote we are looking for, but interesting. I suppose this is a paraphrase of Luke 8:52 and likely a quote from the sermon itself.

Andy S.

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