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Eduardo Zinna
Detective Sergeant
Username: Eduardo
Post Number: 101
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 12:03 pm: | 
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Hello everyone,
A. P., How, Mike,
In looking for information about the first Jews to come to the East End I got more than I bargained for, since a source says that Jews have been coming to Britain ever since King Solomon sent tin traders to Cornwall in 960 BC. The same source, Ed Glinert, says that Joseph of Arimathea also came in search of tin in 20 AD accompanied by his great-nephew, one Jesus. It is also said that Joseph returned to Britain some time later with the Holy Grail.
In more modern times, Jews came to London from Rouen in the wake of the Norman Conquest. All Jews were expelled by Edward I in 1290. Jews expelled from Spain started settling in Aldgate in 1492. Oliver Cromwell encouraged the immigration of Dutch and German Jews. Sephardic Jews opened a synagogue in Creechurch Lane, in the border between the City and the East End, in December 1656. In 1701 they founded the Bevis Mark Synagogue in Aldgate.
By the mid-18th Century the Ashkenazim (who spoke Yiddish) outnumbered the Sephardis 3 to 1. In 1800 there were 10,000 Jews in London, mostly in the East End.
A few years later Charles Dickens gave us Fagin, who was patterned after a fence called Ikey Solomons and lived in Spitalfields.
So, A.P., you were right in saying that there was an Yiddish-speaking community in the East End before the massive immigration that started in 1881. That, however, does not affect my belief that Yiddish-speaking Jews in the East End - most of whom arrived after 1881 - would not have developed an English-influenced dialect by 1888.
Now, Hudson actually referred to Yiddish as a "hybrid dialect", an expression that, linguistically, is correct. As Mike rightly says, however, the word dialect can be used politically as well as linguistically. He mentions Danish, Norwegian and Swedish. I might mention the minority languages of Spain: Basque, Catalan and Galego, which were described as dialects under the Franco Regime. Another example would be Serbian and Croatian, which are sometimes referred to as one language - for political reasons - and sometimes as two separate languages - also for political reasons.
My good amigo How Brown agrees - as I do - that Yiddish can be described as a hybrid dialect and rightly points out that it has Slavic elements. It also has Hebraic elements, not only in vocabulary but also in grammar, such as the plural of words like khadoshim (months) ashkenazim, sefardim or seraphim.
Having agreed with How on one point, I hope he will forgive me for disagreeing with him on another point ot two. "Kurva" means "whore" in Russian, Polish and Serbo-Croatian, and probably in other Slavic languages as well. Magyar must have borrowed the word from the Slavic languages of Hungary's neighbours - not being a Slavic language itself.
Mike says there is no "J" in the Yiddish language and How that there is no "J" in the Yiddish alphabet. A similar sound to "J" - though closer to "Z" as in "azure" - exists in Yiddish. It is transcribed in Roman characters as "zh" - as in "zhurnalist" or "garazh". There is no J in the Yiddish alphabet because there is no Yiddish alphabet: Yiddish is written using Hebrew characters modified to indicate vowels.
Hudson says in his book that the East End Jews' mode of spelling "Jews" in Yiddish is "Juwes". The paragraph reproduced in Robert Linford's post above repeats word by word a news item published in the Pall Mall Gazette on 12 October 1888 - which perhaps was written by Hudson himself. Hermann Adler, the Chief Rabbi, denied that statement and said that the "equivalent in the Judao-German (Yiddish) jargon" was Yidden. Sir Charles Warren further clarified this point in a letter published in the Daily News on 15 October.
All the best,
Eduardo
(Message edited by eduardo on December 04, 2005) |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 308
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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Eduardo,
Right. Yidden is plural. Hudson was wrong. Yiddish is written in the Roman alphabet. It is also written in the Hebrew alphabet. There is much Yiddish literature in the Roman alphabet, and it doesn't use the letter 'y'. There is no Yiddish alphabet just as there is no Irish, Gaelic, Welsh, or Spanish alphabet, but all these languages are and were written in the same alphabet (with a few letter exceptions).
Yiddish is mainly German and not Slavic.
Also, every language is a hybrid. Therefore, calling Yiddish a dialect does, indeed minimalize it. It is a language. Make no mistake about that.
So... what does this tell us? Well, the word Juwes as shown to us by Robert, was used in at least one obscure text. If it was done by someone who knew its meaning, the man (woman?) would have to have been someone who was familiar with obscure texts, and so, well-educated. Yet the structure of the sentence doesn't show any great command of the language, unless it is an attempt to deliberately obscure a message.
I don't think it would be an easy mistake to misspell Jews by anyone who was mildly educated. It could happen, but it doesn't seem likely to me.
Another possibility is that the writer was someone who was a non-native English speaker trying to write in English. He may have thought the Cockney double negatives were the correct way to write, and he made a guess about Jews because the spelling was alien to him, perhaps because he was sounding it out and only knew the word because he had hear it spoken, and had never read it.
This is a major reason in my belief that it was written by a Foreign jew. Was it the Ripper? I have no idea.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1217
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
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Magyar must have borrowed the word from the Slavic
languages of Hungary's neighbours - not being a Slavic language
itself.
Yes sir,The Hunkies speak a Finno-Ugrian tongue...and aren't above rippin' off their Indo-European tongued-neighbors.
Fascinating stuff,Eduardo..the link I posted on a Yiddish alphabet was intended to show how Hebrew is written/described in Yiddish terms,not letters. There is no "Yiddish" alphabet...You are correct sir. I put the cart before the horse and stand corrected...Thanks for fixing the error !
Here is a link to show that the Honkos use that Slavonic term
http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Hungarian.2.html#so104
My granny used to call me “kuki”...which I have now found out why and what for.
Dear A.P....Thanks very,very much for providing that book link...Much appreciated ! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2917
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 1:38 pm: |
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A brilliant post, Eduardo, told me a lot of things I didn't know.
As I'm reading Hudson, I do get the distinct impression that he was a wholesale thief of other's work, and this has recently been shown on another thread by Scott.
Personally I have no influence or impression on this subject of 'Juwes' or otherwise, but was happy to find the word 'Juwes' in a volume of the time.
It is a testament to the quirkiness of search engines that this word 'Juwes' in this particular volume would not be found by normal search procedure. I suspect it will be now.
Search engines learn, as I hope we all do.
No worries, How, always willing to help.
Nah, Mike, I was being ocular. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1708
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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Hi Eduardo et al.
Good and useful discussion here, everyone.
Eduardo, a note of clarification. A bit confusing, and it confused me at first, but Hermann Adler was the acting Chief Rabbi in 1888 during the illness of his father, the first Chief Rabbi of the British United Synagogue, Nathan Adler, who would live until 1890. On his father's death, Hermann Adler would then become Chief Rabbi until his own demise in 1911. Both of these significant religious leaders can be found on the Find-a-Grave site by following the links above.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2680
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 6:16 pm: |
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Hi Folks,
Standard English is simply a dialect of Kent spoken in what is termed "received pronunciation" ie the accent of the Queen,Prime Minister,senior civil servants etc.and in its written form is the dialect used for official papers.Because of this it is usually considered the most important dialect of all the dialects of English,hence the term "Queen"s English".
Linguistically speaking no dialect of English-whether its Northumbrian,Scouse
Cockney or other is any better as a language form or as a form of communication,than any other.
When it comes to people learning English as another language than their first language,the person is simply that-a developing bilingual,a user of English as another language ,a second language,a foreign language.So "Linguistically a person cannot be said to be using a "dialect" of English because they are "non-native" users of English.
All the "dialects" of English are deemed "lingusistically" equal in terms of syntax and semantics.
I am pretty sure that Yiddish,linguistically, is the "language" spoken by the Jews of Eastern Europe and that within various localities of Eastern Europe and elsewhere can be found a variety of dialects of Yiddish.
Natalie |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1218
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 7:05 pm: |
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Sadly, Nats....but Yiddish is a dying language. Its fading away like a good,inexpensive Reuben sandwich on a poppyseed roll...
I really enjoy Yiddish phrases [ in case you didn't know,ist mier..]despite not being Jewish. I really like languages and Yiddish is definitely worth saving.
Mike: Spanish does have an alphabet. Spanish has or had 28 letters [ that n-yay...double ll...] up until recent times. They may have dropped 'em. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2681
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 7:22 pm: |
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Yes I think you are right How,----I think my family on the maternal side spoke Yiddish some hundred years back!I know a few phrases but dont know how to spell them!
I really envy your panache with language!
----that playful stuff with words is a lot of fun to read! |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 309
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 8:57 pm: |
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How,
It is the Roman alphabet accomodated to Spanish use. It isn't a Spanish creation
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2920
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
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Reading through Hudson, I note that in a previous page he uses the word ‘Juwees’ when quoting a police constable, rather than the word ‘Juwes’; and then studying the inquest testimony once again I see that the Coroner is very insistent in his cross-examination of the same police constable that the spelling of the word was in fact ‘Juwees’ and not ‘Juwes’.
The Coroner appears to be aware that the word should have been spelt as ‘Juwees’ in the local jargon of the East End. |
Rosey O'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:34 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
My take on the actual mechanics of the writing is that its positioning is compatible with the writer stooping to SEEMINGLY tie their shoe-lace.
The chalk is likely to be of the rounded stick type common to the classroom and art studio...and used by masons! I have yet to find carpenters who would use chalk rather than the thick flatted pencils they prefer. Tailor's chalk on the other hand is of a slightly different composition and texture and its shape is triangular and quite impossible to write a cursive text on a brick wall.
Rosey :-) |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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Mike,
There is no Yiddish alphabet just as there is no Irish, Gaelic, Welsh, or Spanish alphabet
That's news to me! All those Western European languages - and one can throw in English - use broadly the same Latin character set, but that's not the same as saying that they don't possess alphabets. There may well be no Yiddish alphabet, but Welsh certainly does have its own and for good measure, here it is, with a rough pronunciation guide:
A (ah); B (bee); C (eck); Ch (ech); D (dee); Dd (eth); E (air); F (ev); Ff (eff); G (egg); Ng (eng); H (aitsh); I (ee); L (el); Ll (ell); M (em); N (en); O (awe); P (pee); Ph (fee); R (airr); Rh (rhee); S (ess); T (tee); Th (eth); U (ee); W (oo); Y (err).
Ch, Ph, Rh and Th appear to be common to the Welsh and Greek alphabets (chi, phi, rho, theta) and as such may be throwbacks to pre-Roman Celtic times, or at least before the Latin character set was chosen to encode Welsh script sometime in the early Dark Ages.
These, as well as Dd, Ng and Ll are classed - and behave - as single letters in Welsh, although strictly only Ll, Rh and Ch can exist on their own (Dd, Ng, Ph and Th are invariably "mutations" of the letters D, G, P and T). |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1220
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
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Hey Rosey:
The shape of a tailoring chalk would probably make it be the least likely type of chalk one would be able to write in the manner and size described by Halse. I agree with you,although I never tried using one. Stranger things have occurred though. Thats what I gotta do next...find me a tailor and ask him for a piece....
And as to being in a kneeling position as if tying shoelaces..yeah..I agree with you. I can envision a person "pretending" to tie his shoe,but pulling a sneaky move and writing the message.
Between you and me,Rosey...wouldn't you like to smack the sumbitch who wrote this [ if it wasn't the Ripper...then we'd have to do some serious whomping ] upside his head and lump him up a little for all of us here on the site? Just for all the damned aggravation ? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5346
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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He must have jumped out of his skin when he learned that his message was believed to be a possible murder communication.
Robert |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 310
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 7:47 pm: |
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Gareth,
You are correct. Many languages use the Latin/Roman alphabet. Making a few additions (as in Welsh) or subtractions (as in Irish) does not make it another language's alphabet. It is still teh Roman alphabet modified. If I decided that Sanskrit was so much easier to write English in would that make Sanskrit an English alphabet?
I think not
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Rosey O'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Dear Howie,
I try not to beat people with my cudgels which I keep close at hand as a 'comforting' thought.
As for the graffiti-writer I have a reasonable suspicion they wrote it earlier - during the last hour(s) of daylight. Why? is a long story and life is short.
You could say bon mots were Saucy Jack's forte: "Since saucy jacks so happy are in there/ Give them thy fingers, me thy lips to kiss." (Shakespeare. Sonnet 127. A Ladyes Playe on the Virginal). I suspect we are confronted with a serial acrostic killer using an epistemologically-centred methodology to defeat common reason...in other words, if we wish to play Jack's 'game'we must endeavour to learn the rules: "In Herbes, Verbis et Lapis...bene visit qui bene latuit."
Rosey :-) |
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