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Christopher Lowe
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 3:01 pm: | 
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My research into the fenians suggest that
Tumblety was not the suspect mentioned by
Douglas Browne in The Rise Of Scotland Yard.
It is most likely that this man was Walsh. |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 172
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 9:48 pm: |
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Hi, Christopher:
Thank you for your considered opinion. It might seem that Tumblety though had some connection with the Fenians which would explain the "thick file" on him reported by Special Branch man Littlechild and also, perhaps, the fortune that he left at his death. I wonder whether he could have been receiving money from Irish Americans to act as a courier?
Best regards
Chris George |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Sergeant
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:40 am: |
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hi,
i am curious to know who walsh was and what the mentioning you are refering to ius?
sorry if i have missed something,
jennifer p |
Christopher Lowe
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 3:13 pm: |
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Chris George
You could be right, or he could be a money laundering, look up Northern Ireland and how terrorists make money. Given Littlechild's job he was probably linked to the Fenian movement in some way.
jennifer p
John Walsh was at one stage suspected of being "no.1" the head of the Invincibles, a splinter group of the larger Fenian movement.
Despite being wanted since 1883 (the French refused to extradite him) he was in Britain in 1888 (for the Balfour plot).He died in the early 1890s at Bellevue hospital, New York. He was born in Birmingham and had been prominent in the Land League.
He was probably not the Ripper as he did not match the descriptions. He was 6 foot, well built of military appearence, and he was 53 years of age.
Oh, one more point in case anyone objects to Tumblety being the Ripper because he may have been a terrorist, I seem to remember reading that an Irish forensic expert named Dr. Jim Donovan considered IRA terrorist Jim Lynagh a serial killer, and I suppose the same could be said about The Shankill Butchers.
}Christopher Lowe |
Stan Russo
Police Constable
Username: Stan
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 12:13 am: |
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Chistopher,
J.K. Walsh was mentioned in Monro's recently rediscovered memoirs as having been implicated in the Balfour assassination. No connection to Francis Tumblety has as of yet been determined to my knowledge.
An interesting connection is the description furnished by Emily Marsh which has physical similarities to both Tumblety and Walsh.
STAN RUSSO |
Christopher Lowe
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 2:06 pm: |
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Stan,
The only connection I can see is possible confusion between them at some point, I do see
your point on "the description furnished by Emily Marsh which has physical similarities to both Tumblety and Walsh."
Douglas Browne in The Rise Of Scotland Yard indicated that Macnaughton at one stage believed
the Ripper was the "leader of a plot to assassinate Mr Balfour at the Irish Office." This view is most likely linked to attitudes of the time (In my opinion).
The Monro document speaks of a fenian plot for
"assassination of eminent persons, Mr. Balfour especially, to be carried out by Irishmen, not Irish-Americans. The agent chosen for this rascality was J.S. Walsh, a resident of Brooklyn, and a well-known ruffian who had been concerned
in the Pheonix Park Murder."
-----------------------------
The following are some interesting press reports
about Mr. Walsh:
"It is stated that the John Walsh, whom Carey spoke of as the man from the
North of England, has been arrested in Havre. It is believed that this is the
John Walsh of Middlesborough, and whether this be so or not will soon be
known, as he can easily be identified. He is about six feet high, is very
powerfully built, and has a military appearence, and a thick dark moustache.
His hair is short and black, with streaks of gray. He has a stern countenance,
but is a quiet-speaking man of about forty-eight years of age, and usually
wears a dark pilot jacket. For many years he worked regularly in the
ironworks at Middlesborough, but latterly he has been almost exclusively
occupied in Land League matters. When Michael Davitt visited Middlesborough
in the beginning of January last, John Walsh addressed the meeting. Since
that time he has been very little seen in Middlesborough, and it was reported
that he had gone to Cincinnati to some friends there."
Times, March 3, 1883.
"The Gaulois to-day states that the papers seized by the police in England
disprove the identity of either Mr. Byrne or Mr. Walsh with 'No.1,' and that
they will therefore both be shortly released."
Daily Telegraph, March 14, 1883.
"Documents relative to the Walsh case have been received here and are now
in the hands of the public prosecutor. They bear the signatures of six different
persons, one of whom is an hotel-keeper at Durham, at whose house the prisoner
was staying on May 6th, the date of the Pheonix Park murders."
Daily Telegraph, March 14, 1883.
"Mr. John Walsh was released at five o' clock yesterday evening. He was met
at the prison gate by Mr. Casey and Mr. White, and accompanied by them to his
hotel."
Daily Telegraph, March 21, 1883.
"Only two men known to have been concerned in the Pheonix Park tragedy
escaped the vengeance of British law. One of them John Walsh, an ex- Land
League organiser, died of paralysis, destitute and apparently friendless, in
Bellevue Hospital, in this city."
Rochester Herald, New York, February 19, 1894.
-----------------
Is mise le meas
Christopher Lowe |
Sin e an sceal
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 9:21 am: |
|
Tumblety seems to have been born in Canada, not Ireland.
If he were the kind of conman here described, he would certainly have been hanging around with Fenians - but as a police spy, not as a political activist. It might be interesting to look in the files of the police for any reference to him as a snout. |
Malta Joe
Police Constable
Username: Malta
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 3:43 pm: |
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The question of whether Tumblety was born in Canada or Ireland has been going on for awhile, but this casebook has a document which strongly clarifies the answer. The President of the Rochester Genealogical Society displayed the 1850 Federal Census in the "Francis Tumblety Grave" portion of this web site. Tumblety's own family concedes that Francis originated from Ireland along with his mother + siblings. So far, the only items I've read which supports that Tumblety was born in Canada comes only from a few speculating newsmen. I'd have to give more attention to his own family's response when the census takers knocked on the door of their Rochester home in 1850. But if there is more to this "Tumblety was born in Canada" suggestion, I'd really be interested in reading it.
Tumblety twice told of his place of birth, and both times he said it was Ireland. The first time was in early July of 1860 when he applied for a license to practice medicine in St. Johns, New Brunswick. At the "common clerk's office" he wrote on the application that he was a native of Ireland and an Indian herb Doctor. The second time was reported in the NY World of Dec 4, 1888 when it was reported that he confided to his employee Martin McGarry that he was born in Dublin, Ireland. Of course, those who are opposed to Tumblety coming from Ireland can say that nothing which comes from this scoundrel's mouth should be taken as factual. I can't argue with that!! |
I forgot me password
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 3:07 pm: |
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It would probably be those of us from Ireland who would be most opposed to Tumblety being Irish. I remember an article in the Evening Herald a few years ago which started by asking was the allegation against Tumblety another example of a british miscarriage of justice.
Is mise le meas
Christopher Lowe
(Temporarily in Venice and without my password) |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 10:42 pm: |
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Hi all,
Thanks Joe for pointing me to this thread. I am a little confused. I thought that Macnaughten had Identified the ripper with the leader of a plot to assasinate Mr. Belfour. I do not think he was claiming the leader of the plot was the ripper. I am fairly certain that Macnaughten believed Druitt was the ripper or at least he believed he was the ripper untill 1913. He may have obtained other information later that made him change his view but I am not willing to start speculateing on this just yet. Is it possible that given Tumblety,s past history in America that Special Branch was well aware of him and may have thought that he was a more important figure in the assasination plot then he was?
Your friend,CB |
Malta Joe
Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 38
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 1:42 pm: |
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Hi CB,
You'd be on target if you go with your hunch that the Special Branch was well aware of Tumblety's activity in America. New York City was the point of origin for the Fenian Brotherhood. The 11-19-88 NY Times reported that Tumblety became a member of several questionable clubs in the NY City - Brooklyn area. The 4-27-90 Brooklyn Daily Eagle revealed that these were political clubs and categorized them as an "advanced branch of the Irish National Party" while declaring that Tumblety had a supposed connection with them.
Chris George's excellent June 5th comment on this thread hinted that Tumblety could have been used as a courier for transporting Fenian money across the Atlantic. This thought shouldn't be dismissed. Tumblety had dual-citizenship, and he would have been ideal for the job in many respects. What also enhanced this possibility was the Evening Star's 11-27-88 revelation that it was Tumblety's "queer method of spending his money" which first attracted the Scotland Yard detectives to him. Initially, one might think this was in reference to Tumblety's night time habit of violating the "Maiden Tribute" Laws of the 1880's. But it was Scotland Yard detectives, not city policemen, who involved themselves with this, and that signals to me that we aren't talking about sexual misdemeanors here.
I hate using Tumblety's own words as a source of reference, but still he did once give a reason on why he was having supposed financial problems in England during 1875 by saying, "A false friend was divulging the details of my bank account." It sounded like somebody tipped off the British authorities about how Tumblety was distributing his money. The authorities could have frozen this bank account or taken some kind of action against it while trying to build a case against Tumblety. This could have been the basis of Tumblety's financial complaint. You ever wonder if Littlechild's missing Tumblety-dossier file could have shed more light on this? So yes CB, I'd agree that the Special Branch had their eye on Tumblety for quite awhile before 1888. Good luck in your research.
Joe |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1030
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:42 pm: |
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Hi Joe
Thanks for the nod to me for my theory, expressed above, that Tumblety could have been a courier for the Fenians. He left at his death in St. Louis on May 28, 1903, $138,000 with the New York City banking house of Henry Clews & Co. Where did Tumblety get all that money? From his pimple cure or quack medical practice, or from some other activity?
Although it might not be proof positive that he was doing what we think, it is interesting to note the enigmatic occurrence that despite being a rich man at his death, Dr. Tumblety was at first thought to have died in poverty in St. John's Hospital, St. Louis. Could this be an indicator that he carefully hid information about the bank account, because it contained the proceeds from leading such a secret life as a courier for the Irish underground? We also do have the incident in April 1891, when he was robbed of $2,000 in cash and diamonds valued at $5,000 at the the Plateau Hotel in Hot Springs, Arkansas, another indication that Dr. T was supremely well off, from whatever source.
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by chrisg on November 03, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 5:24 pm: |
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Hi Joe,
Disregard the bottom of my last post. I got my notes mixed up. Dr.Tuke was not a neighbor of Druitt. A George Druitt and a James Hack Tuke worked together. I suppose a possible connection too John. I Apologise for the mistake. I should of added organisation as another quality a good reasearcher should have.
Your friend,CB |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 5:06 pm: |
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Hi all,
Joe, Thanks for the encouragement but good research is a skill it takes time patience and you have to have the brains to know were to look. I do not have such skills but I enjoy the chase and apreciate the good research and hard work that you and chris have put into the subject.
I have been reading the Druitt thread and I came across a thread about a Dr. Harrington Tuke. He was Druitts neighbor? He also was an associate of Mr. Balfour. Could Dr.Tuke be the connection between Druitt and Balfours or the people who were involved in the assasination Plot?
Your friend,CB |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 9:48 am: |
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Hi CB
Thanks for your kind words about me. In truth, possibly Joe, Chris Scott, Mike Conlon, Scott Nelson and such people are harder workers than I am in the vineyards of Ripperological research, but nonetheless I appreciate the recognition. Hopefully, we can all do our "bit" to add to our knowledge of Dr. Tumblety, Druitt, and other suspects and the various aspects of the case. Thank you for your encouragement of our efforts. Cheers, CB!  
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Malta Joe
Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 2:38 pm: |
|
Golly, I'm nowhere near being in the upper class of those other gentlemen! Yes Chris, your reasoning sounds sensible as to why Tumblety chose that pauper's hospital for his hospice ending. I can think of about four other reasons to add to it, but I'll just mention one of them.
The Evans + Gainey book reported that this St. John Hospital was run by The Sisters of Mercy who were founded in Dublin. Tumblety often associated himself with his Irish heritage. One example being that he chose to live at the Occidental Hotel in San Francisco which was newly built by + owned by an Irish contractor.
I don't want to stray off the topic too much, but it's notable how Tumblety linked death with the name of St. John on two occasions in his life. The other being his first known murder in St. John, New Brunswick with the Portmore poisoning. ((I'm currently looking into seeing if the ingestion of savin oil can cause the Portmore autopsy to result in the way it did.) I believe Tumblety foretold of this murder in his poem he sent to the St John Albion upon his arrival in that city.
Those St. John Hospital points of yours were well taken, Chris. It looks like we share a common suspicion on this. Even the newsmen of that time period would write in their Tumblety-articles that the police have yet to discover the secret source of the quack's income. It was good to hear from you.
Joe |
Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 138
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 3:08 pm: |
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Brooklyn Daily Eagle
March 9, 1891
OBESQUIES OF JOHN WALSH
An Irish Revolutionist Who Died in the Flatbush Asylum.
Yesterday the remains of John Walsh who in his time was a man of some note in Irish revolutionary circles, were interred in the exiles' plot in Calvary cemetery. The deceased was unmarried and had no near relatives. He was born in Charleville, County Cork, Ireland, and was 60 years of age. His revolutionary career commenced as an organizer in England. He had to fly to America to escape imprisonment for life. With the late John Breslin and others he took an active part in effecting the escape of the Irish political prisoners from Australia. He died last Wednesday in the Flatbush insane asylum of acute dementia. Funeral services were held yesterday afternoon at Halycon Hall, 537 Third Avenue. About 1,200 Irishmen followed the hearse, which was guarded by ten members in uniform and carrying arms of the Tipperary volunteers.
The pall bearers were Thomas Barter, Thomas J. Donnehy, Frank Byrne, O'Donovan Rossa, Captain Barry, William Lyman, Thomas Bronnan, T.J. Maroney, O.J. O'Reilly, Joseph C. Weldrick, John D. O'Brien, M.J. Rousayne, Thomas H. O'Neill.
Ok, let's scroll up this thread and go to the Sept 23, 2003 Chris Lowe posting. On the bottom of it we read that this same John Walsh is reported to have died three years later. Let's try to get a confirmation on the date of this Rochester Herald Feb 19, 1894 obituary. Was it 1894? The Brooklyn Daily Eagle's 1891 obituary for Walsh can be verified on the web.
If both of these newspaper obituaries are accurate as they have been posted on this thread, then it's possible that somebody living in Rochester, New York in February 1894 has placed an erroneous obituary for this former Irish revolutionary. This person claims Walsh was one of two persons who escaped justice for the Phoenix Park murders. Who was the other person? |
Christopher Lowe
Sergeant
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 35
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 3:55 pm: |
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Malta Joe,
I'll be able to check the report at the weekend. It was contained in the appendix of a book on the invincibles written by the man Anderson believed was the 'No 1'. |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 827
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
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Chris - is that the Patrick Tynan book? If so, I need to get a copy of one chapter and the cheapest second hand copy of the book I can find on the net is a hundred quid. Would you be willing to photocopy a section for me?
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me" - Hunter S. Thompson (1939-2005)
Visit my website - http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/
|
Christopher Lowe
Sergeant
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 36
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 9:39 am: |
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Found the problem. I omitted the end of the article (I may have misread it at the time).
and |
c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 39
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
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I have always been fascinated by Tumblety's possible Fenian connections, but the more I think about it, I have to ask, why would anybody who knew Tumblety trust him? I can't see him giving his allegiance to any cause but himself.
c.d. |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 12:52 pm: |
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Hi all,
If I understand the situation right, Douglaus Browne claimed to have seen documents that Macnaughten had connected the ripper with a leader in the assasination plot of Mr. Balfour.
I m not sure, but is the claim that the ripper was the leader, or was the claim that the ripper was involved with the leader of the plot, and may not have had anything to do with the murders.
If Macnoughten had connected the ripper with the such a person, or plot, then it is possible he is talking about Druitt. Druitt was his prfered suspect.
Your friend, Brad |
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