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  | Archive through August 05, 2003 | Jeffrey Bloomfied | 25 | 1 | 8-05-03 11:32 pm |
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Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 269
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:26 am: | 
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Hi, Jeff:
Hmmmm, don't remember that line, Jeff, or even, "When I leave this saloon, I will give birth to the second half of the nineteenth century!" 
As I recall, the lines of the play called for the actor playing Booth to recite from Shakespeare's Richard III and other at-length speeches. Luckily, I had glasses to polish, takings to count, and customers to serve while Booth droned on. 
All the best
Chris |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 6:21 pm: |
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Jeff--It's probably been a few years since you've read Roscoe. Actually, he does mention Dr. Tumblety (see p. 301-302). There's a letter concerning Dr. T's arrest during the assassination investigation in the National Achives. Roscoe found it, and ponders at some length what it all might mean. Cheers. RP |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 9:20 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
The line I quoted (or mangled) was supposedly actually said by Booth as he left Taltavul's to
go to the theatre that night. According to Jim
Bishop, another drinker in the bar yelled at Booth
something to the effect that he would never be the
actor his father (Junius Brutus Booth Sr.) had been, to which Booth made his retort. It's a good
curtain line, and should have been in the play.
[By the way, Wilkes actually did take a stab at
being a playwrite. One of his hit roles was in
a play called THE MARBLE HEART, where he played
an egocentric sculptor. He helped write that one.]
Hi RJ
I read the Roscoe book about 1970, and have not seen a copy since. The Flushing branch of the Public Library had a copy, which has long since been discarded. I haven't found a copy available at the Strand or other second-hand book shops since then. Pity, it was a good book. Until I
saw the photos of the victims of Jack the Ripper,
I always thought the most grotesque photo (connected to a crime) that I ever viewed was
in the Roscoe book - the one of the mummified
corpse of one David E. George of Enid, Oklahoma
(d.1903)who was shown around the country by one
Finis Bates as the dead John Wilkes Booth. Bates
had the hair and mustache of the dead George combed and trimmed to resemble a photo of Booth.
Sorry I had forgotten that Tumblety was mentioned in the Roscoe book...at least I remembered Captain
Celestina.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 273
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:12 pm: |
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Thanks, Jeff, I don't recall that line in the play I was in but the playwright must have used it!
All, I am not sure that we were aware that Dr. Tumblety's 1872 pamphlet is available on the net at
Narrative of Dr. Tumblety : how he was kidnapped during the American war, his incarceration and discharge. . . .
The transcription is a bit garbled but they also provide links to images of the original pages which will help elucidate what is meant.
All the best
Chris
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John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 89
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 5:13 am: |
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Hello Christopher George.
Congratulations on the further elucidation of Francis Tumblety's bizarre career through the medium of one of the U.S's great strengths: its independent newspapers!
I wish as much information were available on some of the English suspects.
I wonder when the British Library will get round to digitising its impressive newspaper holdings? |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 90
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 5:17 am: |
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Sorry. A cornucopia of Chrisses; I meant Chris Scott.
Needless to say, Christopher George also does sterling work elsewhere.
But it is in the field of newspaper research, our friend C.S. appears non-pariel. |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 274
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 11:11 am: |
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Hi, John:
I agree 100% that the work Chris Scott is doing in unearthing these long-forgotten and out of the way newspaper reports is astounding.
Thanks for the pat on the back to me as well.
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 397
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 3:42 pm: |
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This long and detailed article about Dr T grabbed my interest and I hope it is useful:
Williamsport Sunday Grit
9 December 1888
DR. TUMBLETY IS HERE
THE MAN SUSPECTED OF THE WHITECHAPEL MURDERS
HE REGISTERED A FALSE NAME
And Arrives in New York, Shadowed by Inspector Byrnes - Some of the Eccentricities of the Strange Man
(Special to Grit)
New York, Dec. 8.
Dr. Francis Tumblety, the eccentric American, who was arrested in London some weeks ago on suspicion of being "Jack the Ripper", the Whitechapel murder fiend, and who escaped the vigilance of the London police, is in this city. According to the detectives, he arrived on the French steamship La Bretagne, from Havre, and although there were a dozen or more reporters on the pier when he landed, all failed to recognize him. Two of Inspector Byrnes' most trusted aides were on the pier, however, and as they had been put there especially to keep an eye on the Doctor, whom they suspected was a passenger on the steamer, they had no difficulty in dogging him.
HE IS SHADOWED
After leaving the pier the fugitive from justice entered a hack and drove to a boarding house on West tenth street. The detectives followed him, and now have him under surveillance. The Doctor has not left the boarding house since he entered it. Inpector Byrnes said that although there was no <illegible> charge on which the could arrest the Doctor, he would still keep an eye on his movements.
After his arrest in London he was released on the Whitechapel charge for lack of evidence but rearrested and held for trial for another offense. He was placed under $1,500 bail, and two gentlemen went on his bond. After his release he evaded the London police and fled to Havre.
HIS AMERICAN CAREER
Tumblety is known in this country. As far as can be ascertained, he was born in Rochester, and in his early life sold immoral literature on canal boats. In fact he grew up like a weed on the canal bank. Afew years after reaching manhood he evinced a great dislike for women, and constantly spoke of the gentler sex as a curse to the land. He was always an easy liver, and at all times appeared to have plenty of money, although nobody could learn how or where he acquired it. His title of "doctor" is also in a cloud, and the testimonials he frequently exhibited are said to be bogus.
His odd ways always won attention on this city, in Brooklyn and in Washington. In the latter city he lived for some time in elegant style, travelling around in the costume of a military man, and having two pet dogs and a colored valet travelling behing. Subsequently he was arrested in St. Louis for wearing the uniform of an army surgeon. Tumblety registered for the steamer under and assumed name.
AN ECCENTRIC MAN
He used to hang around the old New York post office and acted strangely. He is a coward physically, though he looks like a giant. He has been a great traveller, having visited every city in Europe.
HIS WASHINGTON CAREER
Col. C. S. Dunham, a well known lawyer who lives hear Fairview, N.J., was intimately connected with Twomblety for many years and, in his own mind, had long connected him with the Whitechapel horrors. "The man's real name, " said the lawyer, "is Tumblety, with Francis for a Christian name. I have here a book published by him a number of years ago, describing some of his strange adventures and wonderful cures, all lies, of course, in which the name of Francis Tumblety M.D., appears. When, to my knowledge of the man's history, his idiosyncracies, his revolting <illegible>, his antipathy to women, and especially to fallen women, his anatomical museum containing many specimens like those carved from the Whitechapel victims - when, to my knowledge on these subjects, there is added the fact of his arrest on suspicion of being the murderer, there appears to me nothing improbable in the suggestion that Tumblety is the culprit.
"He is not a doctor. A more arrant charlatan and quack never fattened on the hopes and fears of afflicted humanity. I first made the fellow's acquaintance a few days after the first battle of Bull Run. Although a very young man at the time I held a colonel's commission in the army, and was at the Capitol on official business. The city was full of strangers, ninety per cent of them military men. All the first class hotels reembled bee hives. Among them were many fine looking and many peculiar looking men, but of the thousands there was not one that attracted half as much attention as Tumblety. A Titan in stature, with a very red face and long flowing mustache, he would have been a noticeable personage in any place and in any garb. But, decked in a richly embroidered coat or jacket, with a medal held by a gay ribbon on each breast, a semi military cap with a high peak, cavalry trousers with the brighest of yellow stripes, riding boots and spurs fit for a show window, a dignified and rather stagy gait and manner, he was as unique a figure as could be found any where in real life. When followed, as he generally was, by a valet and two great dogs, he was no doubt the envy of many hearts. The fellow was everywhere. I never saw anything so nearly approaching ubiquity. Go where you would, to any of the hotels, to the war department or the Navy yard, you were sure to find the doctor. He had no business in either place but he went there to impress the officers whom he would meet. He professed to have had an extensive experience in European hospitals and armies, and claimed to have diplomas from the foremost medical colleges of the Old World and the New. He had, he declared, after much persuasion accepted the commission of Brigade Surgeon at a great sacrifice pecuniarily; but, with great complacency, he always added that, unfortunately for his private patients, his official duties would not for a considerable time take him away from the city.
WHY HE HATED WOMEN
"At length it was whispered about that he was an adventurer. One day my Lieutenant-Colonel and myself accepted the 'doctor's' invitation to a late dinner - symposium, he called it - at his rooms. He had very cosy and tastefully furnished quarters in, I believe, H street. There were three rooms on a floor, the rear one being his office with a bderoom or two a story higher. On reaching the place we found covers laid for eight - that being the doctor's lucky number, he said - several of the guests, all in the military service, were persons with whom we were already acquainted. It was soon apparent that whatever Tumblety's deficiencies as a surgeon, as an amphitryon he could not be easily excelled. His menu, with colored waiters, <illegible> et etceras, was furnished by one of the best caterers in the city. After dinner there were brought out two tables for play - for poker or whist. In the course of the evening some of the party, warmed by the wine, proposed to play for rather heavy stakes, but Tumblety frowned down the proposition at once and in such a way as to show he was no gambler. Some one asked why he had not invited some women to his dinner. His face instantly became as black as a thunder cloud. He had a pack of cards in his hands but he laid them down and said, almost savagely: 'No, Colonel, I don't know any such cattle, and if I did I would, as your friend, sooner give you a dose of quick poison then to take you into such danger." he then broke into a homily on the sin and folly of dissipation, fiercely denounced all women and especially fallen women.
"Then he invited us into his office where he illustrated his lecture, so to speak. One side of this room was entirely occupied with doors, outeardly resembling wardrobes. When the doors were opened quite a museum was revealed - tiers of shelves with glass jars and <illegible>, some round and others square, filled with all sorts of anatomical specimens. The 'doctor' placed on a table a dozen or more jars containing, he said, the matrices of every class of woman. Nearly a half of one of these cases was occupied exclusively with these specimens.
THE WOMAN WHO DUPED HIM
"Not long after this the 'doctor' was in my room when my Lieutenant-Colonel came in and commenced expatiating on the charms of a certain woman. In a moment, almost, the doctor was lecturing him and denouncing women. When he was asked why he hated women, he said that when quite a young man he fell desperately in love with a pretty girl, rather his senior, who promised to reciprocate his affection. After a brief courtship he married her. The honeymoon was not over when he noticed a disposition on the part of his wife to flirt with other men. He remonstrated, she kissed him, called him a dear, jealous fool - and he believed her. Happening to pass one day in a cab through the worst part of the town he saw his wife and a man enter a gloomy looking house. Then he learned that before her marriage his wife had been an inmate of that and many similar houses. Then he gave up on all womankind."
FOND OF NOTORIETY
He would do almost anyting under heaven for notoriety. He appeared at Canterbury Music Hall, Washington, in the '60s and then threatened to prosecute becuase somebody had personated him. He pretended to his acquaintances that he had been outrageously burlesqued and sued the manager for libel. One wnight when the play was on, and the alleged impersonator of the doctor appeared, a powerful man suddenly sprang from the auditorium to the stage, exclaiming: "See here, you infernal scoundrel, Dr. Tumblety is my friend and I won't see him insulted by such an effigy as you are. Come, off with that false mustache and duds," and quick as a flash he seized the doctor's hirsute appendage and pulled it for all it would stand, threw his cap among the audience and otherwise showed the fellow up. The "doctor". though a powerful man, made no struggle, except to get behind the scenes as soon as possible.
IN PITTSBURG
He called himslef the "Great American Herb Doctor" and said he could cure everything. His career here was in many respects a remarkable one. He came, he saw, he conquered, was in turn conquered and had to flee to escape the consequences of trouble from two of his female patients. While here he did a wonderful business, and a made a great deal of money. He spent it most lavishly, too, and was knwon to open wine and give away cigars by the box.
ONE WHO KNEW HIM
A gentleman who knew him in Rochester says: "The only training Tumblety had for the medical profession was in a littel drug store that carried on a disreputable business. A few years later I saw him in Washington and he was putting on great style. He wore a military fatigue costume and told me he was on Gen. McClellan's staff. Lieut. Larry Sullivan, who belonged to a Rochester regiment, came up to him one day. He tried to palm the same tale off upon Sullivan, but the latter being perfectly familiar with McClellan's staff, told the imposter plainly just how great a liar he was. During the war and for some time after Tumblety remained in Washington and played the 'doctor' as he had done in Detroit. He got up some sort of a patent medicine, and at one time the walls were covered with large posters advertising the virtues of the Tumblety Pimple Destroyer. He must have made money, for he was able to spend plenty and live in the most extravagant elegance. Knowing him as I do, I should not be the least surprised of he turned out to be Jack the Ripper."
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 398
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 3:54 pm: |
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With regard to the above article I have been asked to post the original if possible. becuase of the length of the article and the 200Kb limit on files size, I am posting below in 5 parts - bear with me!
Any offerings on the words I have entered as <illegible> in the transcription will be gratefully received!
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 399
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 3:56 pm: |
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 400
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 3:56 pm: |
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 401
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 3:57 pm: |
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 402
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 3:58 pm: |
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Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2820
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 4:01 pm: |
|
Hi Chris -
Nice find! This article appears to have most of the same information found in this Rochester article (itself from the NY World):
http://casebook.org/press_reports/rochester_democrat_and_republican/rd881203.html
... though there is a short paragraph on his time in Pittsburg which seems unique, and very interesting. I'm not sure I know what time period Tumblety was in Pittsburg - anyone?
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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David O'Flaherty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 131
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 01, 2003 - 4:56 pm: |
|
Does anybody recall something about Tumblety in connection with The Battle of Stones River (1862/63)? Maybe I just imagined it--I've read about the lie that Tumbltey was on McClellan's staff and he seems to have been in D.C during this time. There's no record that Tumblety actually served in the Union army, is there? There was either a post or an article about his being AWOL during the Battle of Stones River/Battle of Murfreesboro, but I haven't been able to find it.
Dave
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Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 318
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 3:52 pm: |
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Hi, David:
Lacking evidence to the contrary, I think we can say that Tumblety's self-alleged Civil War service was a complete fabrication. Given all that was written about him, I think we can be sure someone would have nailed him about him going AWOL in one of the many newspaper articles documenting his life. Another point is that just as he lobbied to get compensation for being unjustly jailed by the Federal government, in the papers filed by him as a "British subject" recently unearthed by Chris Scott, it would not surprise me that despite his supposed desertion (if it happened) he would not also have been suing for back pay, but no such record, to my knowledge, has come to light.
All the best
Chris |
David O'Flaherty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 133
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 4:08 pm: |
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Chris,
That makes sense--thanks. I wish I could remember where I read about Stones River in the first place.
Cheers,
Dave |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 123
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 10:09 pm: |
|
Hi David,
The battle at Stones River (or Murfreesboro) in
Tennessee took place Dec. 31, 1862 to January 1,
1863. It was a major battle between the Federals
under General William Rosecrans, and the Confederates under General Braxton Bragg. In terms of battle tactics, it is not a remarkable
battle (both commanders were quite uneven as
both tacticians and battle commanders), and is only counted a Northern victory because Rosecrans
was in control of the field after the carnage of
two days.
By the time of Stones River, George McClellan was no longer on active army service. He had been removed for the second and last time from command of the Army of the Potomac in November 1862, after
he had failed to follow up his victory over Lee
and Jackson at the battle of Antietam Creek (or
Sharpsburg) in September 1862. McClellan was (in
December 1862) in Trenton, New Jersey, with his
wife. His next involvement in the Civil War would be in 1864, when he would be the Democratic
Party's candidate for the Presidency against
Lincoln (who only beat him after Sherman captured
Atlanta, and Farragut won at Mobile Bay).
Tumblety was a liar, and probably had no real involvement in McClellan's staff, but it is
possible (if he was on "Little Mac"'s staff)
for him to be transferred to Rosecrans' command.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 134
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 9:54 am: |
|
Thanks, Jeff. I live near the battlefield in Murfreesboro, so my interest was peaked when I saw it referenced in connction with Tumblety. I meant to file it away, but have since forgotten where I saw it. It's likely inaccurate anyway.
Cheers,
Dave |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 9:57 am: |
|
I always thought that Tumblety could have served as a model for the character of Cullingworth in "The Stark Munro letters" by Arthur Conan Doyle. It's eerie how the physical description fits and he ends up being some sort of quack herbalist to boot. I wonder if Doyle and Tumblety ever met, even briefly?
Regards, Vincent |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 124
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 8:08 pm: |
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Hi Vincent,
It can always be possible for Doyle to have met
Tumblety, but actually the character of Cullingworth was based on a fellow medical student and doctor he briefly worked with, Dr.
George Budd.
Best wishes,
Jeff Bloomfield |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 9:23 am: |
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the information. I guess the blustery, quack-physician type was more common than I thought, on both sides of the Atlantic!
Regards, Vincent |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 641
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 3:01 pm: |
|
Found the text of a letter about Tumblety shortly after he was arrested. This claims that while in England he was actually living in Birmingham and only visited London at weekends. This letter reads as follows:
"My dear Barber.... Do you recollect Dr. Tumblety who came to St. John about 1860 and who used to ride on a beautiful white horse with a long tail, and a couple of grey hounds following after him? Do you recollect how he used to canter along like a circus man? And do you recollect that it was asserted that he killed old Portmore, the Carpenter who built the extension to my house and fleeced me to a large extent? Do you recollect how he suddenly left St. John, circus horse, hounds and all, and afterwards turned up at different places in the States and Canada? He was considered by Dr. Bayard and others an adventurer and Quack Doctor. He is the man who was arrested in London three weeks ago as the Whitechapel murderer. He had been living in Birmingham and used to come up to London on Saturday nights. The police have always had their eyes on him every place he went and finally the Birmingham Police telegraphed to the London Police that he had left for London, and on his arrival he was nabbed accordingly. He must now be 58 or 60 years of age as he left St. John about 1860. He was a tall handsome man and a beautiful rider. When I was in Eastport in 1860 detained by a storm, I met him there and spent part of the day with him. He was very agreeable and intelligent. I do not think he could be the Whitechapel fiend. He now spells his name Twomblety. I believe his original name was Mike Sullivan."
The whole article in which I found this can be found at
http://new-brunswick.net/new-brunswick/ghoststory/ghost1.html
The article is called Jacj the Quack!! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1048
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 6:41 pm: |
|
Hi Chris
I wonder whether the letter writer has somehow mixed Tumblety up with the medical man from Birmingham reportedly arrested at Euston, mentioned in Chapter 23 of the Sourcebook.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 642
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 7:26 am: |
|
Hi Robert
That is possible but from the detailed description of Tumblety given by the writer he is pretty ovciouly well acquainted with him and his appearance
Regards
Chris |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 335
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 3:37 am: |
|
Hi Chris,
Completly off topic.
Leanne and myself were discussing a point about the posibility, that kelly was married to 18 year old James Davies who was killed in a disaster in 1881?[ cannot be more specific at this time, as I am about to set off to work]
I thought as it would add up to what she was reputed to have told Barnett, also he would have been the right age group, also he was a assistant mason, which was the same professional as Joseph Flemming was in when they first met.could have been part of the attraction for kelly?
Therefore my question is , I Would have thought that if a certificate of marriage is traceable between James davies and mary jane, it would have her maiden name avaliable.
Sorry to butt in on Tumblety. But I thought mention it.
Regards Richard. |
Catherine Atherton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 11:56 pm: |
|
Dear Chris Scott
The first of the "illegibles" in the newspaper article looks to me to be 'official'. (The others, as you probably know by now, are 'practises', 'and the', and 'cases', all culled from the newspaper report in the NYW; I took them from the 1st edn. of Evans' and Gainey's book on Dr T., pp. 194, 195, 196.)
best wishes
Catherine Atherton |
Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 62
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
|
I looked for and found a Nov 19,1888 NY World Tumblety-article that I had never seen in its entirety before. It was sent to the Casebook yesterday so maybe it can make its way into the press section sometime in the future. The article provided some extra details to a few old Tumblety stories, and it also revealed a skin problem Tumblety had attained. It was a long article so I'll just quote the highlights of it now. It can be read in full when it appears in the press section.
HE IS "ECCENTRIC" DR. TWOMBLETY
He formerly resided in Nova Scotia where he practised medicine under the name of Dr. Sullivan. About the time of his appearance in this city he was a fugitive from justice, having fled his Nova Scotian home to escape punishment for malpractice.
Ever since his identity became known here he has been under the surveillance of Inspector Byrnes's officers who rarely lose sight of him or knowledge of his whereabouts. For twenty years he has been widely known as the manufacturer of Twomblety's pimple banisher from which he professes to gain a livelihood. His own face is covered with pimples, and although his features are otherwise regular, his appearance on this account is somewhat repulsive. He is a large and heavily built man standing fully six feet in his stockings.
Every afternoon for years he was seen with a large button-hole boquet in the lapel of his coat, walking up Broadway and later in the day promenading up and down in front of the 5th Avenue hotel. The doctor also drove a gorgeously equipped turnout. He was last seen here about five months ago with his leather-peaked cap, white over-gaiters and button-hole boquet. |
Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
|
Oddly, this white button-hole boquet talk unexpectedly developed into something that might need further attention. I drove to a sparcely populated facility yesterday morning. I had been advised to travel to this building so I could obtain paperwork on an Englishman who I suspected as possibly being Tumblety's adversary during the doctor's stay in London. The trip was worthwhile, and good info was obtained. But ironically, the paperwork also revealed that this Englishman would be known to always wear a white flower in his button-hole, too. An accompanying portrait of this man displayed him posing with the white flower prominently shown on his lapel. He publicized the reason for wearing this white flower in his button-hole by stating it was an indication of his blameless life.
Hopefully, I can be able to tell the story of this Englishman in the upcoming months, but for now I'm pondering if Tumblety was mocking his foe by wearing his own white boquet on his lapel.
Maybe Tumblety admired the idea of showing a subtle sign which professed his own innocence, for this would totally be in accord with the doctor's mannerisms. Or maybe it was a just a temporary custom back then to indicate your blameless life by wearing a white button-hole boquet on your lapel!
What I do know is that both Tumblety and this Englishman were both publicly chastised during their days, and they were both known to lash back by using newspaper ink. Please checkout the 'Police Officials' section of the message boards. Under the thread "General Discussions" you'll find a posting there that I just put in. It's under the subtitle "New York vs London Police." A Scotland Yard detective named H.L. Reeves has popped up during some Tumblety-research. His poorly veiled comments that suggest an Irish political connection to these Whitechapel murders is intriguing. Keep in mind that we've just read the NY World's account of how Inspector Byrnes had meticuously kept Tumblety under strict surveillance. Reeve's comments were made four days after this NY World article was printed. |
zxcter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
|
Just curious,has there ever been another serial killer who mutilate women and did homosexual activities on the "side". |
Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 84
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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Hello there zxcter,
I don't know enough about Renwick Williams to expand further on this, but he'd be somebody I'd look into. I've read on the Casebook how he was somewhat of an effeminate man who attacked London women in the 1788-1790 period with a knife. Others can go more into depth about "The Monster" than I can. Bye! Joe
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Timothy B. Riordan
Police Constable
Username: Timothy
Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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Hi all,
Below are some entries from various passenger lists dealing with Tumblety. Remarkable how his age stayed the same for so long. At the bottom is a list of his various transatlantic travels. It is not complete. McGarry (in 1888) said Tumblety made a trip to Glasgow and another to Ireland. I have not found any trace of those trips. Also, the Casebook bio says Tumblety arrived in Liverpool in June 1888. Does anyone know what that is based on?
Thanks,
Tim
Roll 318, List 1062, Line 6
1869 13 Sept. ship Nevada; Liverpool & Queenstown to New York
No. 619
Name Francis Tumbleton
Age 32
Sex M
Calling Gent
Citizenship USA
Destination USA
Loc of Pass. Salon
Roll 400, List 851, Line 8
1875 17 Sept. ship Greece; London & Le Havre to New York
Name Francis Tumblety
Age 40
Sex M
Calling Physician
Citizenship USA
Destination USA
Loc of Pass. Salon
Roll 424, List 382, Line 1
1880 13 April ship Arizona; Liverpool & Queenstown
No. 820
Name Dr. Tumilty
Age 40
Sex M
Occupation Gentleman
Citizenship USA
Destination USA
Loc of Pass. Salon
Roll 512, List 1297, Line 3
1887 7 Oct. ship City of Rome; Liverpool & Queenstown to New York
No. 247
Name Francis Tumblety
Age 40
Sex M
Calling Gent
Citizenship USA
Destination USA
Loc of Pass. Cabin
# of bags 3
Roll 528, List 1616, Line 36
1888 3 Dec. ship La Bretagne; Liverpool & Queenstown to New York
No. 36
Name Frank Townsend
Age 45
Sex M
Calling no occ.
Citizenship USA
Destination NY
Loc of Pass. 1st Place
# of bags 4
Atlantic Passages
1869 July Sails for Liverpool on steamer Nebraska from NY
1869 Sept. 13 Arrives in NY on board the steamer Nevada from Liverpool
?? Sails for Liverpool from NY
1875 Sept. 17 Arrives in NY on the ship Greece from London
1878 April 23 Sails for Europe on the Guion line steamer Montana from NY
1880 April 13 Arrives NY on steamer Arizona from Liverpool
??? Sails for Liverpool from NY
1887 Oct. 7 Arrives in NY on the ship City of Rome from Liverpool
1888 <July 27 Sails for Liverpool from NY
1888 Dec 3 Arrive in NY on ship La Bretagne from Le Havre
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 587
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 8:16 pm: |
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Hi Tim,
I know this may sound like an odd or impossible thought, but is there some way to review the passenger and crewmen lists for those vessels that Dr. T was on to see if any other person frequently travelled on the same boats as the bad doctor?
Jeff |
Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 85
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 8:44 pm: |
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That settles it, I'm your new best friend, Tim! What a revelation that last posting of yours was. The point of focus must be the July 27, 1888 sail from NY to Liverpool. If we can obtain the name of that ship and its arrival time in Liverpool, it can then be directly compared to the Aug 7th George Yard murder.
Tumblety would have had to arrive in Liverpool and immediately travel to the London area. At first glance it seems like a tight fit, but makeable in 10 days of travel time. The Nov 19th NY World claimed that Tumblety was in the NY area "5 months ago" meaning mid-June 1888. People assume he traveled to Europe right after this, so I suppose that's where the "Tumblety arrived in England in June 1888" theory could have originated. Thanks for a great posting, Tim. |
Timothy B. Riordan
Police Constable
Username: Timothy
Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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Jeff,
As far as I can tell, Tumblety was traveling alone. None of the names of the other cabin passengers look familiar. Nor did there seem to be any consistent fellow travellers.
Joe,
I may have caused some confusion. The July 27 date is merely when he had to be in London (It is the date of his first assault charge). The angle sign in front of it was meant to indicate a date before which. I do not know when he sailed for Liverpool that year. I really wish I did.
It is easy to track people arriving in the US but much harder to find them leaving. The British National Archives has lists of Inward passengers. If someone was so inclined, they could check ship lists for Liverpool for this time. Given the limited time frame, it should not be too hard.
Tim |
Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 86
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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Tim,
I got out my old Tumblety scrapbook and I was going to log into July 27, 1888 that he set sail for Liverpool when I noticed that I had already labeled him with his crime upon Albert Fisher in Middlesex County on that same day! I didn't catch that little angle you had put in before the July 27th date. Ooops.
As for the 1887 sail from NY to Liverpool, I'd estimate that as being in the late May to early June time frame. The Nov 21, 1888 NY Herald had Tumblety in Wash DC around May 1887, and the quack met the abolitionist Douglas in Liverpool by June 10, 1887. |
Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 98
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:40 pm: |
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This must be my lucky day. I finally found a picture of the La Bretagne. www.kinshipsprints.com/catalog/ships/b/labretagne.htm
That should do the trick! |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1456
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 6:41 pm: |
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Hi Joe
Here's a bunch of them including the picture you referenced which is labeled as the Official CGT postcard of La Bretagne.
http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/CGT_PCs_03.html#anchor797198
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1457
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 8:22 am: |
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Hi Joe
An interesting thing. The official postcard view for La Champagne is the same as for La Bretagne, only the names have been changed! See below. I am assuming they were sister ships.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 647
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 2:58 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
The CGT was a French Atlantic line that was in competition to the Cunard line and the White Star line. It's style of vessel seems to be the positioning of the two funnels in the front of the liner. All of the vessels had names beginning with "Le" and a geographic location.
Unfortunately, just as "White Star" conjures up "Titanic" rather than "Olympic", CGT conjures up an 1898 tragedy which horrified the globe.
The steamship "Le Bourgoyne" was rammed in a fog off Sable Island (Nova Scotia, I believe) by a British ship, the "Cromartyshire". The crew of the French ship went totally beserk, grabbed all of the life rafts and boats, and fought violently against passengers trying to get into them. Only a handful of passengers survived (most survivors were the crew). ONE woman and no children survived. The one woman who lived was fortunate to have a husband who protected her with her to get into a life raft. About 560 people drowned (or were clubbed to death) in the disaster. Ironically enough, it occurred on July 2, 1898, the same day as the U.S. naval victory over the Spanish at the battle of Santiago Bay. One American and about four hundred Spaniards died in that battle. More people were killed in Le Bourgoyne.
The period was not a happy one for the French, with it's humiliation at Fashoda by the British, and negative criticism about the Dreyfus affair.
Mark Twain (never a fan of the French) used Le Bourgoyne as a convenient club to bash them with, but he wasn't alone.
Le Bourgoyne was in service for a long time. IN 1889 Thomas Edison went to the Paris Exposition with his exhibits on board her.
Jeff |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1458
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 9:35 am: |
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Hi Jeff
Thanks for those pieces of information which all add to my knowledge of the era.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 99
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 10:42 pm: |
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My January 4th posting on this thread spoke of a man with a "white button-hole" boquet. I can finally reveal him now. I was speaking of a Member of Parliament named Colonel Francis Charles Hughes-Hallett. The 'press reports' section of the Casebook has this Colonel featured in the Oct 8, 1888 Reno Evening Gazette. (That article mistakenly referred to him as J.C. Hughes-Hallett when they should have called him F.C. Hughes-Hallett.)
In this Reno Evening Gazette article, Hughes-Hallett identified the Ripper as a man "who left his club as I was then doing..." The Colonel goes on to describe the Ripper as not only being a fellow clubman, but a man who was either an army doctor or perhaps a retired army surgeon. Hughes-Hallett also declared this clubman to be a person who had "studied medicine as a fad." The current issue of Ripperologist goes into more detail concerning this Reno, Nevada article. Hughes-Hallett had suspected this phony doctor as soon as the George Yard murder was committed, and HH kept quiet for two months before he came to America to talk about this. He chose to speak to the American Press within a week after the Batty Street Lodger had fled. |
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