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jfripper
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 10:04 pm: | 
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Hi,
Following on from William Beadle's book, JTR - Anatomy of a Myth, I have done a bit of research myself into W H Bury, and found quite a bit about him, but would still like to ask if there is anyone out there who would care to share a bit of information. I do know that contrary to William Beadle's remark, there is a photograph of William Bury and his wife Ellen (nee Elliot), somewhere in existence. In fact he had quite a few photo's made and distributed them amongst friends and relations in Wolverhampton, during August 1888.
I have also done some research into the life of Ellen Elliot, and have located her father and family, most of whom were living at Takely in Essex, at the time of her murder.
Hope to hear from someone.
Cheers,
Michael
(Australia) |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2614
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 1:31 pm: |
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Hi Michael -
I'd be interested in any information you've found on W.H. Bury (particularly photographs). Please feel free to either post your findings on the boards, or email me at spryder@casebook.org. Thanks! |
colin@colinbrunton.com
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 6:32 pm: |
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William H.Bury murdered his wife in a flat at 33 Cowgate Dundee - seemingly to shut her up I only found this out today from a Dundee Lawyer who is interested in this case .
ps I have a shop at 37 Cowgate Dundee |
David Knott
Police Constable
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 9:44 am: |
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Hello all,
I am interested to know what others make of Bury's confessional letter in which he admitted killing his wife (printed in 'Letters From Hell').
I felt that this diminished the case against him being Jack the Ripper somewhat. I mean, if you've been sentenced to death and you decide to confess your sins to a clergyman, wouldn't you include the Whitechapel Murders if you were indeed 'Saucy Jacky'? |
jfripper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 5:37 am: |
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Hi,
In reply to David's message in regards W. H. Bury's confessional letter, the fact that he makes no mention of any involvement in the Whitechapel Murders does not imply that any case being made against him in regards this series of murders is negated. More to the point is the fact that Scotland Yard could not find any evidence against him in which to link him to the London murders, even after diligent and exhaustive investigations. The only person who could possibily have had any information or suspicions to give to Scotland Yard was his wife, and she was dead.
Researching Bury's life you get a feeling of him being a very crafty and cunning individual, who would use any means possible to achieve his aims.
The murder of his wife was not a spur-of-the-moment decision. In fact, as early as the beginning of December 1888, Bury was setting in motion events that would accumulate in his wife's murder. The ruses and trickery he used to achieve these ends, including managing to get his wife out of London, show he was a very clever individual.
This cleverness was maintained in Scotland with his ploys of deliberate subterfuge.
Why, if he was only a wife murderer, did he voluntary introduce the idea of a possible connection to Jack The Ripper?
Also, why did he leave the two chalked messages relating to Jack The Ripper on the wall of his basement flat? Why not rub them out?
Why did he need to get his wife out of London to murder her? Did he think there was a greater risk of evidence being found implicating him as being JTR if he had murdered his wife in London?
The fact that he introduced the idea of Jack into his Scottish detention guaranteed that this possibility would be investigated. He knew there would be no evidence to connect him. It would also undermine the investigation being conducted into his wife's murder, with the Dundee police probably expending a lot of their energies in matters relating the Whitechapel Murders, hoping that they had caught Jack.
Another point in favour of protraying Bury as a cunning, crafty and clever individual is that before he reported his wife's murder to the Dundee police, on the 10th February 1889, he spent the whole day of the 8th at the Courthouse watching and taking note of all the cases brought before the Prosecutor Fiscal.
Throughout his own trial he was very confident that he would be found innocent of his wife's murder, and even after the guilty verdict he still protrayed a confident image.
Maybe all this is wrong. Maybe he was just insane, and this is the form his insanity took. Then again, it is a very thin line between insanity and genius.
Proof of insanity in Bury's family comes from his mother, Mary, who was confined to Worcestor County & City Lunatic Asylum in May 1860, where she remained until her death, on 30th March 1864.
Bury's father had died within a few months of William birth, in August 1859.
In reply to Colin's message, William Bury murdered his wife in their basement flat at 113 Princess Street, Dundee, not at 33 Cowgate.
They had been at this address only seven days when Bury murdered his wife. Prior to this, the couple had lodged at Mrs Robinson's house in Union Street, Dundee, but left on account of the rent being too high.
Cheers, for now.
Michael
Australia) |
Leanne Perry
Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 4:09 pm: |
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G'day Michael,
I typed up a story by Julian Rosenthal titled: 'Suspect William Bury' for Issue 5 of 'Ripperoo', and remember seeing a photograph of William and Ellen somewhere, but unfortunately I never scanned it onto the pages. I've been looking through my Ripper books and found no pictures. I think it may have been in another book about murders, so I'll keep looking.
One paragraph of Julian's story goes:
'One thing to ponder over is that when Bury murdered Ellen and stuffed her mutilated corpse into a trunk, the injuries inflicted upon her were reminiscent of the injuries inflicted upon Annie Chapman and Catharine Eddowes. Both were found disemboweled, with their intestines hanging out in the same manner that Ellen was found.' If you want to use this information, I guess it would be Copyright friendly to ask Julian. He visits these message boards occasionally!
LEANNE PERRY,
Sub-editor of 'RIPPEROO'.
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jfripper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 6:51 pm: |
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Hi Leanne,
Thank you for your correspondence. I would greatly appreciate a copy of the photo of William & Ellen Bury if you manage to locate it.
I have been putting out 'feelers' about this photograph, and also for more information about Bury's younger years. As you will have noticed from my previous mail to the message board, Bury was basically left without a mother or father within a year of his birth. He was the youngest of three, having a both an older brother and sister.
The uncle mentioned did not take care of his relations, this was left to a close family friend. She raised the children and provided them with a solid education. This lady was also pivotal in securing for William his first position of employment, as a 'Factors Clerk' at a local warehouse, at the age of sixteen.
I am at present trying to identify this lady, and what happened to Bury's brother and sister, (No doubt the 1861 and 1871 census will have this information, though in the 1881 census Bury's surname was spelt BERRY).
At the time of Bury's hanging, there was only mention of an uncle living, thereby giving the impression that his brother & sister were dead at this time.
Any information, from anybody, about this lady or any other piece of information would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Michael. |
john lockett
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 9:58 am: |
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Hi Michael.
I had a hunt for a photo of W H Bury a short while ago. I tried the local library, but with no success.
I actually live only 15 miles from Stourbridge, and have drunk in Bury's old local...probably! 
If you need some "footwork" doing, drop me an e-mail.
Good luck! |
Leanne Perry
Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 9:05 pm: |
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G'day Michael,
I just checked in my local library too and couldn't find that photo. When I hear from Jules again, I'll ask if he's seen it!
LEANNE. |
jfripper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 4:31 pm: |
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Leanne,
Am I correct in stating that Jules lives in Canberra? I also live in Canberra and was wondering whether it would be easier for me to contact him directly.
Michael
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Leanne Perry
Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 3:12 am: |
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G'day again,
Or ripperoo2000@yahoo.com
I finally got it right!
LEA |
Jon
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 3:11 pm: |
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Michael -
I am a former Superintendent in Tayside Police - the force which now covers Dundee - at the time of the Elliot murder the city was policed by the much smaller geographically City of Dundee Police. I have written previously in the Casebook on the Bury theory which on the face of it has a great deal of circumstantial evidence to support it. I was surprised to see your reference to Ellen's parental home being in Takely, Essex as previous information was that she came originally from Dorset and possibly the Isle of Wight. I can confirm that the murder occurred at 113 Princes Street - now demolished. The earlier departure of Bury and Ellen from the lodging house in Union Street was due not so much to the cost of the rent but the fear which Bury inspired in his elderly landlady. There seems no logical reason for this, rather just a feeling on her part that he was 'odd' and 'frightening' - possibly of course inspired by press reports of the Whitechapel murders and the fact that English people were relatively uncommon in Victorian Dundee.
I am happy to answer further queries you may have.
Regards
Jon |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 236
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 12:56 pm: |
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Hi all
I have today found an extraordinary account naming Bury as the Ripper. The story comes from James Berry the hangman. There are some interesting differences even in the name but I think it's fairly certain he is talking about W.H.Bury.
These differences are:
1) He gives the prisoner's name as JOHN HENRY BUREY
2) He asserts that Burey (sic) lived in a shop in the East End and makes no mention of the Scotland location of the Bury murder
3) He asserts that Burey let out rooms and that all the Ripper victims lodged with him at one time or another
I hope this is of interest and will beposting the whole Berry article soon
Chris S
Washington Post 17 November 1907
From an article entitled: "After Executing 197 criminals Berry Opposes Death Penalty"
London, Nov. 7.
One of the most notorious criminals of modern times, a man who has given his name to an odious kind of murder, Jack the Ripper, Berry declares he hanged, and at the moment he was talking he was wearing the cuff links that he took from the man's cuffs when he pinioned his hands. According to Berry, this man, of whose identity there have been so many stories, was John Henry Burey, keeper of a cat's meat shop in the East End of London.
Jack the Ripper's Crimes
"Behind this shop," said Berry, "were rooms which he used to let to women of the streets. During his absence some one - one of these degraded women, he fully believed - broke into his room and stole some of his savings.
"This made the man so mad that he swore an oath that if he could not find out who it was he would murder every woman who had used his house. This threat he proceeded to carry out.
"Eventually his wife threatened, during a quarrel, to inform the authorities, whereupon he killed her and tried to dispose of the body, which he cut up. For this he was condemned.
"When in the cell and about to pinion him, I said:
"'Well, Jack the Ripper, have you anything to say? If so, say it now, as you will have no chance later.'
"'No,' was the reply. 'If any one stole anything from me I'd kill the lot to find the right one. I'm not going to give you any big lines, go on with your work, Berry, I'll not say anything.'
"Nor did he."
Berry is to depart shortly to the United States, where he is booked for an evangelical lecturing tour.
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Bob Hinton
Detective Sergeant
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 5:14 pm: |
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Bill Beadle wrote an excellent book on this very subject.
Bob |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Sergeant
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 42
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:48 am: |
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hi,
i was wondering something about bury that i may have asked on a distant previous occassion i can never be sure as to this, in mammouth the short article states the words JTR is in the basement or somne such similar thing was found written was this written by him or her or someone else or unknown or what?
jennifer
ps interesting how many hang men tried to get in on the act, no? |
David Peterson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 12:46 am: |
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Hello Everyone,
Regarding William Bury. Bill Beadle's article on the suspect presents a very clear set of circumstances that could make Bury a viable suspect. Particularly his discussion of Bury's ownership of a pony and cart and the location of the stable where he stored it. But what I want to know is if anyone ever confirmed the writing on the walls that said "Jack the Ripper is in the Sellar", etc. His article suposes that his wife wrote it - but does anyone know of a report that confirms this? This website says that criminal authroities were sent from London to investigate the case - perhaps that report is available?
If anyone has any information on this I'd appreciate it.
Thanks
Dave |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1484
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 6:42 pm: |
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There is currently a book about Berry for sale on Ebay and the write up includes this quote from the which I thought might be of interest:
Berry claimed that “two quiet-looking men in suits of a London cut” attended the execution, and remarked afterwards that “You'll find there will be no Whitechapel crimes after this. You've put an end to "Jack the Ripper's games.”
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 344
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 8:30 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Stewart Evans' book Executioner spends some time discussing Berry's theory about Bury being the Ripper. I don't know if you were referring to that book or one of Berry's books, but thought I'd point that out.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1490
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 10:03 am: |
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Yes, Dan, that is the one for sale on Ebay
Chris |
extendedping
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 5:51 pm: |
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Most ripper like crime, don't know why this guy always seems like an afterthought as a suspect to reseacehers on this board. |
Colin the cat
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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this has just got to be the guy! probably!
Areas to investigate would have to be:
1.exactly what, in the doctor's report, suggested
that Ellen's killing was unconnected, given that the received wisdom now is that her murder was v.similar to Chapman and Eddowes? The casebook has only one 'problem with candidacy...the police dropped him but that was said to be on the basis of the medical report!
2.I haven't read the Beadle book but am intrigued by Berry's occupations..to James Berry the Hangman he has a cat meat shop in the east end', I believe Beadle has him working as a sawdust collector...what else is known about these dodgy sounding occupations? I'm sure I've read of the proximity of cat meat shops, in these pages , to at least one victim...how common were these places and where was Berry's, exactly, if he had one?
Is any of this in Beadle's book? I'm off to buy a copy. meow, |
ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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Is it possible that the murder of Bury's wife was an attempted copycat murder?
This is suggesting he wasn't Jack the Ripper but that he killed his wife and thought (somewhat foolishly) that he could convince the police into thinking that Jack the Ripper had stopped off at his house and murdered his wife.
That he also remembered the Ghoulston street graffito and that he thought putting little messages around his house would make it reminiscent of this fact. He realised that he wouldn't be thought of as the ripper, for some reason we don't know but one that the police of the time agreed with, having not arrested him for it. And that perhaps as a result he wouldn't be convicted of his wife's murder.
This may satisfy people advocating that Bury was canniving, cunning and clever, as this ploy seems canniving and cunning but only just falls short of being clever.
He had imagination at least. |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 6:31 pm: |
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I see where Mephisto indicates Bury as his own favorite suspect on his Profile page. Mephisto has never posted this thread to give his reasons. I'd like to invite him to make a detailed discussion of why Bury was the Whitechapel murderer here. I will then critique it using the A?R methodology. This will give posters an opportunity to see two top-flight Ripperologists in action. Please note I am not a Bury expert, so I might have to defer on empirical matters.
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 643
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 2:18 pm: |
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Somehow it doesn't surprise me that those inclined to sail their vessel in the flagging winds of the 'scientific method' would plump for Bury. Concrete thinking, the whole 8 1/2 yards. Take care D.R., RP |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2206
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 4:26 pm: |
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My question is:
Could not these two top-flight Ripperologists just sort of fly away and never come back again?
I'll dream on. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3599
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
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As far as I am concerned, Bury is one of the better suspects out there (and could very well fit Monty's comparison between the married Sutcliffe and the Ripper). It is quite possible that the murder on his wife was a copy-cat made to look like the Ripper, but it can of course not be excluded that he might have been the Ripper himself. Abberline apparently showed some interest in him as well (although that in itself means little in my book).
Bury is definitely on my list.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 670
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
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You make me laugh, AP!
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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