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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2976
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 12:10 pm: | 
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I came across this strange little reference in a work by an ex-chaplain of Brixton of about the time of Thomas Cutbush’s confinement in Broadmoor.
The chaplain mentions meeting a most agreeable young chap who is on remand at Brixton whilst waiting to be transferred to Broadmoor. The chap is connected to a recent sensational criminal case reported in the press; and according to the chaplain presents a most remarkable appearance with a bright red face due to his unhealthy habit of experimenting with various chemicals on his facial skin.
Now, I just wonder whether this might be Thomas Cutbush, for it was reported in the press at his trial that his appearance was ‘most singular’.
This could also clear up the mystery of the red-faced, sun-tanned or blotchy faced man reported by witnesses. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5403
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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Great find, AP. I think Thomas was at Holloway (with Dr Gilbert)at the time of the court appearance, but there's no reason why he shouldn't have been transferred to Brixton afterwards.
Re blotchy-face, maybe the man who attacked Ada Wilson was Jack. I'm not sure about Kelly's beer-bucket man - he seems to have come on the scene too early that night.
Robert |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 671
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 4:09 pm: |
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"This could also clear up the mystery of the red-faced, sun-tanned or blotchy faced man reported by witnesses. "
All I can say is "wow"....really makes one think.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 673
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:00 pm: |
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On a different thread, R.J. said:
"Meanwhile, re-read the description of Tommy Cutbush in Broadmoor. If that man wasn't on opiates, I'll be my Uncle Radka's monkey. Our friends the British were very big on stuffing opium down the throats of the unruly in the 19th Century."
What do you think of this, A.P. ? Cutbush on opiates in Broadmoor - not the desirability of doping up the unruly....
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:09 pm: |
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Sir Bob:
Maybe you mean..doping them "down", as opium is a debilatator,not a drug that gets one wired up. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 675
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:23 pm: |
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Hey How - you know it's funny...that came from my mom constantly nagging me about my teenaged friends who she said were "all doped up". Of course you are correct.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2991
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
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Thanks, Sir Robert, a very good point, and I obviously missed RJ's comments earlier.
My feeling is yes, highly likely that long term patients of asylums in the LVP were given opiates to chill them out.
I'll check to see if I can't find more info on this. |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1254
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
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A.P.
Dollars to doughnuts that they had to shove the tar-like mush down the patient's gullets inside a piece of food or put it in their food unbeknownst to the patient, because I don't believe you can shoot opium in your arm like you can heroin or morphine. Basically,it wouldn't be a large amount of Uncle Opie to make a Cutbush dopey.... |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2996
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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How, I don’t think they would need to disguise opiates at all in the prison system.
The following is taken from a report into Victorian orphanages and infirmaries
‘Fussy and difficult babies could be calmed with a number of medicinal preparations, such as: Godfrey’s Cordial, Atkinson’s Infant Preservative and Street’s Infant Quietness. All of these easy to obtain preparations contained laudanum, an opium derivative:
In 1842 the commissioners of the Children’s Employment Commission encountered two girls, both aged ten, at Lye in the Black Country, who claimed to be ‘nurses’, that is, they nursed babies at home. Both gave their babies a spoonful of Godfrey’s three times a day (the common practice at the time). One said she thought it was made of tea with brown sugar in it; it made the baby sleep quietly during the day. She took it herself, too. (Hopkins 108)
Use of these opiates to calm children was so common-place that these young girls thought nothing about giving it frequently to their charges, nor did they question taking it themselves. Even up until the 1970’s parents still gave their teething babies paregoric, another opium based medicine, to soothe the discomfort associated with teething. Another side affect of the laudanum was that it took away the appetite. Children (and adults) frequently using the prescription would not feel the pangs of hunger when they could not afford to buy an adequate supply of food. Unfortunately parents did not realize the addictive nature of such drugs. Many parents were simply ignorant to the dangers and the composition of the medicine they took.’
It is rumoured that prisoners on death row did indeed have easy access to opiates of this nature, but the government of the day denied the rumour, however I was able to find several cases of prisoners - from inquest reports - who died from opiate poisoning a long time after their sentence began.
Most famously a vicar who drank it by the gallon.
Interestingly we have two aspects to the Thomas Cutbush case rolled into one here, for I believe his ‘singular appearance’ when he appeared in court to have been caused by the strange habit of rubbing laudanum into his facial skin, and then his later catatonic state in Broadmoor to have been the result of the abuse of this highly toxic substance, probably with the consent of the prison authorities.
I believe the modern day treatment of long term prisoners is based entirely on the prescription of opiates. |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 9:44 pm: |
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A.P.
Oh,to be a teething and cranky tot in the LVP !! I'd whine all day !!!! Yo,Nana...I gotta headache over here !!!!..
Here's more on laudanum:
Laudanum
"She peeped over the edge of the mushroom, and her eyes immediately met those of a large blue caterpillar, that was sitting on the top, with its arms folded, quietly smoking a long hookah, and taking not the smallest notice of her or of anything else."
—Lewis Carroll
Laudanum was a wildly popular drug during the Victorian era. It was an opium-based painkiller prescribed for everything from headaches to tuberculosis. Victorian nursemaids even spoon fed the drug to cranky infants, often leading to the untimely deaths of their charges.
Originally, Laudanum was thought of as a drug of the working class. As it was cheaper than gin it was not uncommon for blue-collar men and woman to binge on laudanum after a hard week's work. Use of the drug spread rapidly. Doctors of the time prescribed it for almost every aliment. Many upper-class women developed habits.
The outbreak of tuberculosis may have been another factor in the drug's rising popularity. For a short period of time the tuberculosis "look" (very pale skin and frequent fainting spells) was quite in vogue. Victorian women went to great lengths to emulate the look, often taking arsenic to pale the skin (slowly poising themselves to death).
Laudanum's biggest clam to fame however was its use by the romantic poets. Many of the Pre-Raphaelites (Among them Lord Byron, Shelly and others) were know to indulge. The image of the romantic poet, pale, morose, drunk on absinthe and laudanum is a common one. The film Gothic portrays the stereotypical image of that society. In reality, most of the PRB were heavy drinkers first and formost.
This excerpt (source unknown) describes the process of making laudanum.
"She got up and went to the cabinet and took out a basketful of withered poppies and set about making laudanum. She picked out the poppy heads one by one, pierced the capsules with a sewing needle and then dropped them into a small glazed crock and set it near the stove for the opium to sweat out."
Afterwards, the extract would be mixed with sugar and/or alcohol to make it easier to drink.
Laudanum is probably no longer manufactured anywhere in the world. It's closest modern relative is paragoric, which also is no longer being made.
Several drugs and aesthetic practices serve as archetypes of this era-gone-by. Some are still readily available, others available in certain parts of the world. Work such as was produced under the influence of these has not been seen since. Whether that is attributable to their chemical indulgences or merely their social climate is arguable and perhaps we may never have an answer.
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You're probably right about them using a derivatice of opium,A.P. It makes a hell of a lot more sense. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 683
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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In my opinion, the key takeaway from this discussion is that it is dangerous to conclude that an inmate's behavior tells us much about what they were like before being committed. Someone may well have been menacing and dangerous while outside, but chemically lobotomized in the asylum.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3000
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
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Thanks for all that, How, now where did I put me hooker?
Quite right, Sir Robert, that is a crucial point to the description of Thomas in Broadmoor as 'catatonic' by the reporters.
Thomas was certainly a 'lively' chap before he went West. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5430
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 5:18 am: |
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Here's something AP found.
Robert |
HRAK
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Perhaps blotchy-faced man arrived early, but we have no reliable report of him leaving.
Diana posted the following thread starter on Monday, November 29, 2004-7:57am:
Blotchy Face Revisited
The unfortunate effect of Hutchinson's tale, if indeed it is only a tale is to make us ignore Blotchy Face with the beer bucket. But if you assume for the sake of argument that Hutchinson made the whole thing up, and Hutchinson wasn't JTR then Blotchy Face becomes deserving of a whole lot more attention than he has had in the past.
Unfortuanately, this post was followed with various tales of sailors and the like with no mention of Thomas. It is remarkable that time and again, THC fits the picture of who Jack is supposed to have been, and it is remarkable how there does not seem to be any evidence that strongly argues against him being Jack (except the say so of Sir MM). |
HRAK
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 4:00 pm: |
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I have thought Thomas Cutbush to be a good candidate for blotchy-faced man ever since reading Chris Scott’s posting of The Sun article of 13 February 1894, for it included a letter supposedly recovered from Thomas’ room:
A SENSATIONAL LETTER.
"... The nerve muscles of my face and jaw were greatly agitated - spots with large, red irritant patches came out on my face, and a dreadful burning pain in my left side. I was speedily in a state of great and terrible anxiety and fear. I went to him again four days after and explained the state I was in, and he said, "Yes, I will give you something for it." I have since then received three bottles of medicine. Iron, sarsaparilla, strychnine &c. My face is disfigured ..."
There is an issue about the unknown date of this note from Thomas, but when recounting the story of the old man thrown downstairs, the article of 14 Feb. does make mention of Thomas being in the habit of anointing his face with lotions.
Did Thomas have acne?
 |
jason_connachan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 1:34 pm: |
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AP
Hat's off, another great find!
I just wish you were a Druitt or Kosminski-ist. You would have found proof of these suspects guilt long ago |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 707
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 9:03 pm: |
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"It is remarkable that time and again, THC fits the picture of who Jack is supposed to have been, and it is remarkable how there does not seem to be any evidence that strongly argues against him being Jack (except the say so of Sir MM). "
Agreed wholeheartedly.
If Cutbush wasn't Jack, Jack was someone very much like Cutbush.
I think the thing for me that makes Cutbush so 'appealing' is that it then becomes quite reasonable to throw Ada Wilson in as a 'warm up' and lo and behold, you've got 6 eyewitnesses describing Mr. Cutbush to a T. (Wilson, PC Smith, Schwartz, Marshall, Maxwell and Sarah Lewis)
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3029
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 5:25 am: |
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Thanks for the positive comments, folks.
HRAK especially for reminding me of that letter said to have been found in Thomas’ room, I’d quite forgotten that.
Yes, Sir Robert, it is interesting that all this separate and individual witness identification appears to lead us to Thomas Cutbush with his ‘singular’ red-faced appearance.
Presently with no bias whatsoever I rate Thomas Cutbush as the only truly feasible suspect for the crimes of the Whitechapel Murderer.
Thanks, Jason, much appreciated positive feedback. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5490
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 9:25 am: |
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Folks, I know that blotchy-face might be seen as helpful to the Cutbush theory. But even if GH's story was a total fabrication - i.e. including the sighting of Kelly - we still have the singing, indicating that Blotchy didn't kill her the minute he got in the room.
I just can't swallow the idea of Blotchy waiting - unless he had a truly perverted and twisted passion for Kelly's singing.
My guess is that Kelly was killed because Jack wanted to dodge the rain.
Robert |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 708
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 8:23 pm: |
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"Presently with no bias whatsoever I rate Thomas Cutbush as the only truly feasible suspect for the crimes of the Whitechapel Murderer. "
We need t-shirts, A.P. : "Cutbush. Accept no substitutes."
"My guess is that Kelly was killed because Jack wanted to dodge the rain."
Robert - could I ask a favor of you ? What does the Times have to say about the weather on both November 8th and 9th ? I don't mean what the reports on the murder say the weather was like, but the actual meteorological reports.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5496
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 4:24 am: |
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Hi Sir Robert
I don't know whether it's just me, but since I had new anti-virus stuff installed a short while ago, my access to the Times has been erratic at best. The weather report won't load up for me. However this is the Casebook info :
http://casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html
Robert |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 709
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 9:00 am: |
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Much thanks, Robert. Question came up on another thread as to whether or not GH drudged back from Rombley in the rain. It would appear he did....
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2780
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 10:30 am: |
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I think too that the man with the blotchy face
was very rough looking and shabby according to the woman who saw him.And she herself was pretty down at heel according to reports.It doesnt sound like the young man described by the couple in Camden Town
who found Cutbush[if it was Cutbush ofcourse] quite the gentleman- so it seems. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5500
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 2:34 pm: |
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Sir Robert, thanks to AP you now have the material to write a weather dissertation.
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 711
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 3:04 pm: |
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Much obliged, A.P. and Robert !
I don't want to hijack a Cutbush thread to talk about Hutch, but these weather reports really cast doubt about what the ^%$! he was doing hanging out in front of MJK's digs after his 14 mile hike from Romford.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5501
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 3:49 pm: |
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Hi Sir Robert
Well, Bob thinks that he trudged through the rain because he was desperate to see Kelly. I don't see why he couldn't have killed Kelly, without knowing her at all - i.e. he walked back to Spitalfields because it was time to do another job, and the rain would have made the streets a bit quieter than usual, which would have been an advantage from his point of view.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3038
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 5:27 pm: |
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Robert, thanks.
I prefer your simple and plausible view that Kelly might have been killed indoors simply because it was raining.
The killer might have been fussy about getting his coat wet.
His 'rips' might not have worked then.
And all the others outdoors because it was dry.
As we now have the technology to correctly identify the weather - when still not the killer - perhaps we should start a thread to do that very thing.
Kill the weather. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 712
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 5:39 pm: |
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"As we now have the technology to correctly identify the weather - when still not the killer - perhaps we should start a thread to do that very thing.
Kill the weather. "
As my speciality is suggesting work for others, I'm all for this. What you posted for the 8th and 9th was fabulous...could you do it for all the victims ?
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5503
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 5:46 pm: |
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Hi Sir Robert
Some of that stuff AP posted was rather small, and I forgot to enlarge it. Do you mean that you can actually read all of it?
Robert |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 713
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 5:56 pm: |
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Hey Robert - I used my Sherlock Holmes magnifying glass....
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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HRAK
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 11:02 am: |
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Robert, who is to say that a blotchy Jack did not savour the opportunity to sit and watch his prey a while? On previous occasions, out of doors, such was not possible, but inside he was able to do things that could not be done out. |
