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Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 936
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 6:42 am: | 
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Howard,
Gee not to come off as a know it all, but actually it would be murder, not self-defense. The key word is "later". If you successfully defend yourself against an attacker, and that attacker is alive once the attack is over, then later, should you kill that person, it's murder, not self-defense. Gosh, I really am always right.
Phil,
Yes. Grammar has rules, but a.) not everyone follows them when speaking, and b.) we do have these two lovely little things called implication and inference. Donnie is hardly likely to state: "I killed a woman" but he is likely to imply it. Your second example sentence is not at all apt (again) because within it, there is the possibility of others possessing the ring directly stated: Sauron was overthrown and something of his was destroyed in the process. Beyond grammar, language is made of both of pragmatics and semantics, which is what is really being argued, not grammar. If someone else had wielded the talisman, D'onston should have said "and later after it was no longer in my possession" because he had first indicated that this talisman was in his possession...by not indicating that the talisman had left his possession, he is implying he did it. That is an accurate read of the sentence. Meaning can be inferred without being directly stated.
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 527
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 6:56 am: |
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Ally, I was brought up that to believe that as a gentleman, I should NEVER contradict a lady who thinks she is right.
Phil |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1632
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:41 am: |
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Ally,
Were we married once?
You sound awfully familiar.
Monty
(Message edited by monty on May 12, 2005)
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 378
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:50 am: |
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Hello All,
Good thread this one.
I am one who found Melvin Harris an interesting, entertaining and well-researched writer.
It must be hard to maintain these hard yards all the time.
My reading of the quotes above is:
That RDS implied, using 'weasel words', that he
was around when mysterious murders took place.
If you liked, you could think RDS actually did those murders.But he cloaked his words in mists of obfuscation. So he could back out of them ,
I think Melvin Harris was demonstrating that RDS liked to paint a picture of himself as a really
dangerous man to be around.
True, you have to wonder why he did not put the whole quote in. And that sure does make him look
shifty.
But, perhaps the sheer volume of output with deadlines and "being human", should also be taken into account.
I know, he chided others for the same sins. But perhaps Harold, along with his interesting research, which might yield more examples, should find out if Melvin Harris was sick around the time he wrote this. Did he not die in the next decade? Was he starting to lose his edge? Not as sharp as he had been?
I am sure you will look at both sides of the story Harold.
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 379
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:53 am: |
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Hello All,
Good thread this one.
I am one who found Melvin Harris an interesting, entertaining and well-researched writer.
It must be hard to maintain these hard yards all the time.
My reading of the quotes above is:
That RDS implied, using 'weasel words', that he
was around when mysterious murders took place.
If you liked, you could think RDS actually did those murders.But he cloaked his words in mists of obfuscation. So he could back out of them ,
I think Melvin Harris was demonstrating that RDS liked to paint a picture of himself as a really
dangerous man to be around.
True, you have to wonder why he did not put the whole quote in. And that sure does make him look
shifty.
But, perhaps the sheer volume of output with deadlines and "being human", should also be taken into account.
I know, he chided others for the same sins. But perhaps Howard, along with his interesting research, which might yield more examples, should find out if Melvin Harris was sick around the time he wrote this. Did he not die in the next decade? Was he starting to lose his edge? Not as sharp as he had been?
I am sure you will look at both sides of the story Howard.
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Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 937
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 8:04 am: |
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Phil,
Which along with your last three posts to me of "gee you think you know everything" is merely a cop-out way of saying you have no real argument. If I am wrong, point to my error.
But being a "gentleman" you prefer to blame your impotence on the lady.
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 530
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:52 am: |
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AIP - Possessed is past tense. I once possessed would have worked as well for Donston.
I clearly speak a different language to most here, that's all I can say. I disagree your second paragraph absolutely. That interpretation is NOT clear.
Phil |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 531
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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Sorry. PC playing up double-post.
Phil
(Message edited by Phil on May 12, 2005) |
Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 938
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
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It is interesting to me that people completely deny that words have meanings beyond their literal meaning. By the logic displayed here, canines and felines must be falling out of the sky constantly, people who have eaten too much must literally be exploding all over the place and Phil doesn't speak English.
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 533
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 5:31 pm: |
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I won't rise to your baiting, Ally. I promised Stephen.
The discussion is about the literal meaning of the words. Interpretation is something different. |
Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 939
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
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I am not baiting Phil. You say we are talking about the literal meaning of words. By the literal meanings of your words above, you don't speak English. That's the problem with only looking at the literal meanings, people rarely literally state what they literally mean. If I looked at a sampling of your posts, I am sure that I can find several examples where what you actually said was not what you really meant. No one speaks completely literally.
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 383
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
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Ally...
I hate to be a nit-picker, but when you post:
"Here would be a better analogy: "Now at the time Bobby attacked me, I just so happened to have this here knife with which I was able to defend myself, and later, wouldn't you know, that knife happened to end up killing Bobby. Huh, how ‘bout that?" Now, did I directly state that I had killed Bobby? No. But knives don't kill people, people kill people. So yes, it is an oblique confession to having murdered Bobby..
..you are entitled to your opinion, but for me, had this imaginary Bobby not been attacked,there was no reason to use his knife at all. Obviously,killing the person as in this scenario where the word "later" is used as if there was an interval of time for Bobby to pause and reflect, is not what is in the tale that D'onston describes. In that one,there is a build up from the time that this hoochie coochie woman begins to fatten him up for the Spider God [ gimme a break !] and then when she wants to throw a nice one on him,he then whips out his mojo hand and abracadabra ! The woman is deader than a David Brenner joke.....It may have taken a bit,but the powers of the Dark Forces permeated the inner being of this wanton rumpwiggler and in a moment...kaput.
Do you see what I mean ?
And besides....what the heck is D'onston doing surrounded by a gaggle of Soo-Soo's without a gun? A gun is far more efficient than a talisman whose batteries may have been low. Ya never know,toots...
Mr.Right {once in a great while }
(Message edited by howard on May 12, 2005) |
Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 940
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:26 pm: |
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Hey there How, here's an interesting tidbit:
The argument is whether D'onston had the talisman in his possession and was saying that he killed her or it left his possession and someone else did. There are two different transcriptions of the same article on the website.
One says that the talisman "was eventually the means, not only of her death, but of her absolute annihilation... "
and the other says he was able to deflect the spells and that the talisman
"was evidently the means, not only of her death, but of her absolute annihilation... "
The difference between *evidently* and *eventually* is huge and if it was actually evidently, then that completely negates the "later after it had left his possession" argument. I wonder which is correct?
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Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 941
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:59 pm: |
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Just for fun I decided to look into it and here is what I figure, maybe right, maybe wrong. There are paragraphs that appear almost verbatim in the expanded story Subč, the Obeeyah that Donnie wrote(as he said he would do in the article). For some reason, although the other words are identical in every other aspect, in the later version he changed the word "eventually" to "evidently". Perhaps he had picked up on the possible ambiguity and wanted to clarify.
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 674
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 8:48 pm: |
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Comparing a talisman to a gun or a knife and then declaring that Stephenson claims to actively have killed someone is completely missing the point of what a talisman is. A talisman is a protective magical device. He even calls it a protective device in this case. And it's quite common in a lot of folklore, especially African, for magic that misses its intended target to come right back at the spellcaster.
So, yes, if you replace the word "talisman" with "gun" or "knife" you can get it to read like a murder. If you switch it with a more accurate replacemen, like "guard dog" or "reflective surface" or something, then it's clearly not a murder at all.
You can't just swap in a word that has a completely different meaning and then try to argue that that's what he meant. If we are going to play that game we might as well switch the word "talisman" with "cocaine" and try to prove that Stephenson was a drug dealer.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 617
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 9:46 pm: |
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Howie-- But isn't the next line of some importance?
"Still this talisman, ancient and powerful as it was, could only preserve from mimical magical processes, and demoniac agencies ; it could not protect from death or ordinary physical dangers..."
I mean, you could argue that it is an inside joke. While she's playing around with reflective surfaces and talismans and worried about black magic, he bonked her over the head with a stick ('an ordinary physical danger'). |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 384
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 5:58 am: |
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Rajah.....
I hear you,buddy. Its unfortunate that RDS doesn't elaborate.
In fact,what you posted does, in all fairness, to me at least, look like he used an alternative means to get out of trouble with this Hottentot hellcat.
Dan is right in his way too,imho...RDS speaks of this talisman as if it was the source and means of her death...all without an available gun to free himself from the clutches of the Mogambo People...oy vey !
Ally....Thanks for bringing to light the differences in the other version...That helps.
Umgawa ! |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 380
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:49 am: |
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Perhaps Donston was paralleling the story of the Gordian knot. Where Greeks gathered to undo this magical knot.Some struggled for some time.
The prize for so doing being ...what?.. the kingdom or something.
Through the middle of the crowd steps this dude who...draws his sword and slashes the knot causing it to undo. An apt parallel to the above story.
The risk of getting completely off the thread makes me forebear from telling the well-known story of the Russian version of NASA's "Gordian" solution to the US attempt to invent a "Space Pen" which could write in zero gravity...
O.K., the Russian solution was the....er, PENCIL! |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 385
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:42 am: |
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Ally...
Are these different versions available anywhere? If not,which came first ? |
Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 943
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 6:11 am: |
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Howdy How,
Sorry it has taken me a few days to get back to you. I have been uber-busy. Also some of the keys on my keyboard are stuck so forgive any typos or missing letters. Having a pain trying to type today.
If you go to the Search feature and search for "Sube" the witch doctors name, you will see the other mention. The second writing is in Crowley's collected works of D'on. The "evidently" evidently came after the "eventually" as far as I have been able to determine.
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 390
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 7:12 am: |
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Than s A ly !
I went looking for you to see why you hadn't answered. Much appreciated. |
eLeven
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:55 am: |
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Hang on perhaps I missed a post somewhere, (and I probably did). Surely it doesn’t matter if D’onston is claiming he killed the woman or not. The fact is no matter what he is claiming, he did not kill anyone with a magic tallisman. Unless he threw it at her! Very hard! In my world there are no magic talismans. |
AIP
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:22 pm: |
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Phil Hill, yes, 'possessed' is past tense but the whole story is told in past tense and the implicit meaning is that at the time the events in the story took place he was the possessor of the talisman, not that he once possessed it at the time of the events in the story. How I love semantics. |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 437
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 8:55 pm: |
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"In my world there are no magic talismans."
eLeven
Add me to your list and call it a dozen...
I want to display a few of the passages here,which to me, resemble the witch in H.Rider Haggard's novel, King Solomons' Mines, which most of you have read I am sure. In that novel,a witch named Gagool is killed.
Check these out and see if the descriptions of the capabilities of Sube', by our imaginative writer [his encore to a previous article in the PMG ] aren't similar to the Haggard witch...
...but first this from RDS:
I shall most probably, enter fully into this subject, and give a description of one of these sacrifices in my forthcoming book, " Subčč, the Obeeyah, " a work of professed fiction.
"and my chief amusement in the weeks in which I was kept a prisoner by her (and undergoing the process of being fattened up to form an appetising bonne bouche for the spider god) was in proving to her that she not do this, that, and the other-in fact, what schoolboys call " setting her cappers."
"Thus, when she took up a toad to change it into a tic-polonga, it was not done by any word of command, or "word of power" (as in Hindoo and Talmudic magic), but she rolled it between her bands for a few moments, and pulled and manipulated it until it was more like a lizard than anything, having distinctly the legs intact."
"When we wanted food, it was only a variety of the Indian "mango trick." If mealies were wanted she would plant a grain of mace in the earth, and gaze steadfastly upon the place, her lips moving, but no audible sounds issuing from them. In a few moments (no covering up) a bright green shoot would come up, which grew and grew, and in five minutes' time was a considerable tuft of mealies (Indian corn), every head ripe and fit for use."
"Thus, I used to challenge her to produce an orange tree from a mango seed or plantains from mealies ; but this was entirely beyond her power. Give her a seed a leaf, or a portion of the plant required, and she could do it ;"
"When Subčč wanted to kill an animal, serpent, or anything else, either for food or other purposes, she simply pointed her tube at it with a steady gaze, as though taking aim with a revolver. Nothing ever appeared to issue from the tube : but in a few moments the animal appeared surrounded by a kind of reddish cloud or thin vapour through which its dying struggles could be seen."
My favorite...
"But the most terrible example, to my mind, of her power was in the transformation of the sexes. One day, being offended with a chief, who sought in vain to pacify her, she said to him. " I will degrade you and you shall become a woman! " Placing her hands upon him while be stood powerless as though turned to stone-his eyeballs staring in horror-she commenced her manipulations. Beginning with his face she rubbed away every vestige of beard and moustache. The prominent cheek bones fell in and the smooth rounded face of a woman became apparent. Next the powerful biceps and triceps were rubbed down, and the lank lean aim of the African woman appeared. Next, seizing hold of his vast pectoral muscles, she began a different process, pinching up and pulling them out until there were shortly visible well-developed mammae. And so she proceeded, from head to foot, until, in less than ten minutes, every vestige of manhood had disappeared, and there stood before us a hulking, clumsy, knock-kneed woman."
"I genuinely believe that those old writers only related what was actually matter of common knowledge at the time. As to centaurs I don't know ; but as to the former existence of satyrs, the transformations of Circe, and the petrifying action of the Medusa's head, I am as certain as I am of my own existence. "
I don't ordinarily disagree with R.J. Palmer,as I think R.J. is easily one of the best all around posters on the boards here,there,and everywhere. When Rajah speaks,I clam up and listen.
However,what is puzzling to me about the excerpts above is not that anyone in their right mind would believe in these supernatural gifts that didn't exist for either the SuSu shaman or the Golden Dawn bored-intellectual type...but that Mr. Harris would use this entire story to bolster the theory that RDS liked to brag about murder.
For me,at least, its a story intended to entertain and the focus on RDS' bragging on killing/eliminating/murdering is forced.
Your thoughts....
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 439
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 9:22 pm: |
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http://www.classic-novels.com/author/haggard/king_solomons_mines/kingsolomonsmines036.shtml
I remember reading this book by Haggard [ who was challenged to write it by a colleague ] when I was 14 and in the 4th grade....great fiction.
...and a link to the Gutenberg Project
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=3155
This link takes you to "SHE" by Haggard.....
(Message edited by howard on May 26, 2005)
(Message edited by howard on May 26, 2005)
HowBrown
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