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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 678
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 3:29 pm: | 
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Scott,
You bring up the Loch Ness monster... OK, fine, just like faeries and a host of other claims, we can't prove they don't exist. So what? If someone came along here with a Ripper theory that was based upon the ideas that faeries exist, they need to start out by giving real reasons to believe that they actually do. Having to prove a negative is complete nonsense, the people advancing claims of fact have to show that it is a fact, not the other way around.
As it stands, the first recorded instance of "Juwes" used in a Freemason sense is in the second half of the 20th century from a theory explicitly trying to tie the 1888 Goulston Street Graffiti to the Freemasons. At the time Freemasons said that the term was not one they actually used. Nobody has been able to point to any source from before then that contains the word. I've personally searched a vintage two volume encyclopedia of Freemasonry and now this book I bought, and it doesn't exist in either... which, at least with the encyclopedia, if it actually had existed you'd think it would have been documented.
In fact the word wouldn't even make much sense linguistically... Why would three characters that start with "Jube" be abbreviated as JuWes? We're supposed to believe that a bunch of well-educated Freemasons are slipped Ws into words for no reason? How is that supposed to make any more sense than that the Goulston Street Graffito writer was simply semi-literate and misspelled a word that was often spelled incorrectly?
In this case, lack of evidence to support the idea is very telling that it likely never really existed. The only people claiming it did are just asserting it to be true and referring either to very late 20th century references (that came out after Stephen Knight's book) or to old ones that do not contain what they were alleged to have in them.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 993
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 3:55 pm: |
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Andy
If you want to know the history of the word
'Juwe(s)'in connection with freemasonry I suggest you read 'Born in Blood', the lost secrets of Freemasonry by John J Robinson. Published by Century 1989.
Thank you for that, but the question has to be whether John Robinson cites any authority for the use of the word "Juwes".
One sceptical review, on the website of the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon, has this to say:
Mr. Robinson speaks of the names "Juwes" and Peter Gower" as if they were standard Masonic fare, though most Masons will never have heard of them. With good reason; the former comes from a graffito of 1888 said to be connected with Jack the Ripper, and the latter is found only in the so-called Leland-Locke Manuscript, a forgery of 1753.
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/reviews/born_in_blood02.html
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2066
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
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Personally I think the word ‘Juwes’ could be almost as complicated as God.
We have Yahwe, we have Yahwa, we have Jaya, we have Jhaya; in fact if you study it we have every spelling of God you could ever think of, and more.
Jesus is Jewish, Isa is Arabic for the same Son of God.
Generally, Freemasons like to keep their whores alive and in expensive apartments around Knightsbridge, however they ain’t fond of Vatican bankers who sometimes end up adangling from London bridges. |
Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 214
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 6:27 pm: |
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Dan , apparently Pike spells the names of the Three Ruffians as IVBLA, IVBLV and IVBLVM. Try looking for those words !
I'm surprised that Juwes isn't there , I thought it would be.  |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 680
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
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Hi Simon,
Nope, looks like you were right the first time. I just redid some searches and saw that the text wasn;t coming up right. Whoever put the ebook together didn't clean up their scan and let the computer try to interpret what the text said instead of checking it.
I just now found Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum... I had to go through every reference to the word "three" for context. The software for some crazy reason has the Us in their names appearing as Cs.
With that in mind I've relooked for Juwes. Scanning for JCWES doesn't find it either, and it's not in the section talking about those three names (which is brief and doesn't give much info on them, not calling them three ruffians or anything like that).
So, anyway, it's not in contention (and wasn't ever, regardless of whether this book had them or not) that those three characters exist in Masonic lore, but I've yet to see any reference to Juwes as collective name for them prior to the whole royal conspiracy thing.
Sorry for misleading people on the reference to those characters here.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Mitch Hannah
Police Constable
Username: Mitch
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 2:03 am: |
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Hello all,
I am now well satisfied the article I initially mentioned is not associated with Tumblety at all. How did we go from a 2 paragraph article to the JUWES. The term only has relevance IF you are a protagonist of the masonic/royal conspiracy.
I myself do not subscribe to that theory in the least. In fact, I would be disappointed if such a conspiracy were proven. I study SERIAL killers. Any conspiracy casts the Ripper murders in a vastly different light, and would then be of no further interest to me.
Mitch Hannah
"On the plains of hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions, who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest, and, resting, died."
Anonymous c. 1900
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 543
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 3:04 am: |
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On the origin of the word JUWES, I can see HOW it MIGHT have arisen.
Although the three men's names do not contain a "W", they might be a wit at some time have been regarded as semitic and thus as "jews". Playing on the JU element of the names they get collectively and mockingly referred to as the "JUwes".
This is the sort of word play that academics 9and perhaps masonic lore masters) love. It becomes an "in-joke".
A derivation of that sort might fit IF, and I underline IF the word ever had currency in masonic titles AND referred to the Three Ruffians.
I begin seriously to doubt this. It is 30 years or so since knight first made the contention and yet we still seem to have no evidence to support it. Is that not strange? Does it not tell us something?
Even those who WANT the Juwes/Ruffians/masonic link to be true in this thread have been unable to produce a single tenable reference that unequivocally states that the association is valid.
I would suggest that this should lead us to conclude that unless and until such evidence is produced, the link between JUWES and masonry (at least in the UK and probably in both UK/USA) in 1888 should be considered untenable and DEAD as far as this case is concerned.
Any takers?
Phil |
Mitch Hannah
Sergeant
Username: Mitch
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 3:30 am: |
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Phil,
I feel inclined to believe one of the following to be the case.
1) Either an educated man with an intent to lead police to believe the killer was illiterate, albeit unconvincingly, and intentionally spelled the word incorrectly.
2) A vague possiblity that the word could simply have been Juives, which I recall reading somehwere as French for Jews, and this simply was not detected by those viewing the message (We don't really know there was adequate lighting, nor whether the handwriting was distinct).
3) The message wasn't written by the killer at all.
In any case, whether a meaning exists or not, the most viable potential as evidence was lost on Warren's descision to have the writing sponged away. The most important aspect of the writing would certainly have been the handwriting itself. If any link could have been established between the writing and any of the letters purporting to be from the killer then there MAY have been some significance in the message, and then only IF the authors of any letters could have been identified.
I certainly believe that simply on the odds of probability at least one letter among all those received came from the killer. I am most inclined to the one written to Lusk. The 'From Hell' communique.
Lastly, I feel inclined to point out that there were existing accepted myths at the time of Knight's book which he perpetuated, and used to support his theory. Joseph Sickert later recanted his story as told by Knight, and it appears that Joseph Sickert's initial objective COULD have been simply to establish a connection between his father and royalty.
WITHOUT a photograph of the writing I don't view it as having any relevance to the case at all.
"On the plains of hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions, who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest, and, resting, died."
Anonymous c. 1900
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Olivier P.M.G. Donni
Sergeant
Username: Olivier
Post Number: 36
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 3:48 am: |
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Mitch,
You are right: "Juives" means "Jews" in French, but it is a feminine word (i.e., Juives = Jewish Women). This interpretation is not very credible.
Olivier
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Mitch Hannah
Sergeant
Username: Mitch
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 3:55 am: |
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Olivier,
Thank you for clarifying that. I speak very little French, and do not have even a rudimentary knowledge of word forms in the language.
Mitch
"On the plains of hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions, who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest, and, resting, died."
Anonymous c. 1900
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RoseyORyan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 5:35 pm: |
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Dear Mr Souden,
May I take this opportunity to thank you for your most thoughtful posts. Already, your "zig zag" has been transposed (via Sir Robert Anderson) into a more energetic "zig zagging". Is this a hint to our illustrious sleuth at the Department of Movements, namely Diana, to factor in "Zig Zagging? [The home run is never straight!!!]
Now, the reason I touch upon this.... obliquy abstruse, obtuse...whatever...angular alignment, is that I never knew a crook who worked a straight line [hence, word "crook"]. Crooks do have look-outs and accomplices. May I appeal to Sir Robert to expand on his suggested modus operandi.
Rosey :=) |
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