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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Mary Jane Kelly » Is this the last known photograph of Millers court? » Archive through February 28, 2004 « Previous Next »

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Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello all,
I don't know if this photograph has been the subject of discussion before but I was looking through the Hulton on-line archive site, typed Spitalfields into the search box and this little beauty appeared.
It is dated 11 June 1928 and states:
Construction workers lay the foundation of the new Sale Room at Spitalfields Market in east London.
After checking my facts on this site, the dates correspond exactly with the demolition of the North side of Dorset street.
Furthermore,in the background can be seen the trees from the Christchurch gardens.
Now this is the tempting bit, look at the centre of the picture and you can see a small 2 floor outhouse with a sloping room butted onto the main building. It looks in the right position for #13 and 20 Millers Court.
I have labelled the 2nd photograph for easier viewing but I would welcome someone to give their opinion on this subject.
The second photograph follows in a separate post.
Regards,
Greg
demolition
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greghutton
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi again,
as promised, here is the second photograph with labelling. I hope you can all see what I can see.
Regards,
GregDemolition labelled
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Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2980
Registered: 10-1997
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Greg -

Excellent find! I'm not sure whether or not we can verify this as being Miller's court, though certainly looking at a map of the area the pieces do seem to fit. If what you suggest is true then it would seem the building behind (or in the photo, above) what you marked as Mary's room would be the Britannia Public House (click for an image) - it was demolished in 1929. It does seem to fit there as well, compared to the photo - a three story building with numerous rectangular windows.

Below is a section of map which would show the general p.o.v. of the photo in question. It is from the new ripperArt Whitechapel Map, by the way, which I find eminently useful. :-)


Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack

Post Number: 210
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Greg

Thanks for posting that picture.

This is a map from 1913 (Millers Court marked in red)



As you can see New Court corresponds nicely, but there is another court, right next to Millers Court, and this might be the one you marked in the photo. With Millers Court on the other side of the wall? It looks to me as if the building may have already been demolished, but I wouldn't swear to it. The building Stephen mentions might be 'The Britannia' looks to me to be on the South side of the street, might just be my eyesight.
I tried to match some of the buildings in the photo to the map, but they didn't seem to be in the place you would expect them to be.

A more detailed photo might tell us once and for all.

All the best

Rob

P.S. why don't you register. It would get your posts through quicker.
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 708
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
A fascinating picture, one can almost feel the atmosphere, just by looking ,I Believe that the gangers of the site[ foreman] actually sold pieces of brick ,and rubble of number 13, to intrested parties, it would be intresting to clarify for certain , the actual site.
Richard.
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Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash

Post Number: 459
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 5:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you look just to the right (in the picture) of where Greg says Miller's court is, there is a wall painted white with a door in it, and to the right of this appears to be a passage through the building. This is plainly not Mary's room unless the windows etc had been moved, so it would appear to me to be the entrance to the next court along, not named on either of the maps above. That would mean that Greg's assessment of where Miller's Court was would be about correct. Great photo.
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Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,
looking at the photograph, the large building behind the marked Millers Court site looks to be the very large building as plotted on the two maps provided by Stephen and Robert.If you look at the plot size of the buildings on either side of Millers court, they correspond with the photograph almost exactly!
Regards,
Greg.
The letter to register was posted this morning.
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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great photo Gregg.
But what I think we are seeing here, is the demolition of the North side of Brushfeild Street, the next street up from Dorset Street.

I think that the large building centre is indeed the Britannia, which to me is not in the right position, for the street in question to be Dorset Street.

The Britannia needs to be farther left of where it is in the picture, i.e. in line with the supposed marking of Dorset Street for this picture to ring true.

What I'm saying is that the Britannia looks to be too far South,(to the right), for the street in question to be Dorset Street.

Does that make sense?
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty

Post Number: 781
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greg,

Just wanted to say great work Bub.

I find these photos fanscinating to look at.

Monty
:-)
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Adam Wood
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice find Greg. I think there's some confusion over the position of the Britannia, however, which I hope the annotated photo below will clear up. The windows of the Britannia wouldn't be visible from this angle, as it's two sides were away from camera. If you look at the photo of Commercial Street/the Britannia, you can see a taller building on the opposite corner of Dorset Street with the word 'EXPORT' painted on. This building would have had a windowed side on Dorset Street, which I believe is the building shown in Greg's photo. The chimneys of the Britannia can be seen from the reverse angle.

Adam



1928 photo
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Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Cludgy,
can you mark on a map where you think the position of the camera was? If Christ church spire was visable it would confirm the whole aspect of the scene. However, if I understand correctly the spire would be visable in the distance from anywhere near Spitalfields market.
P.S. I don't think it is the Britannia pub, it could be the building on the South side of Dorset street or as I said before the next door building to 26 Dorset street.
Can anyone else see the archway with a window above the door to 13 Millers Court?
Regards,
Greg
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Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2984
Registered: 10-1997
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Adam -

Good point, I believe you may be right in pinpointing the correct location of the Britannia. In the photo of the Britannia/Commercial Street, the "Export" building appears to be at least one story taller than the Britannia, and this merges nicely with the new photo above.

Good eyes, Adam!
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Greg Hutton
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Adam,
great spot, that clinches it for me, Millers Court it is.
Regards,
Greg
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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greg my apoligies.
On second thoughts, the buildings behind the Britannia are clearly seen in the photo, these are marked on the map.
The demolished area is to the immediate right of these buildings, so does indeed seem to be the area which includes Dorset Street.
The only thing I can think of as to why the Britannia looks to far to the right, could be due to the fact that Dorset street dosn't run due East, West, but runs down at an angle.
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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Adam.
Quite right in identifying the location of the Britannia, and Export House
The building which I initially identified as the Briannia, has windows on It's North side, but if you look at the map The Britania has windows only on It's East and South sides.
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 1184
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great photos and an intriguing discussion, guys. As a local historian I love this kind of stuff. And as Richard puts it, one can almost feel the atmosphere.
I wish we could have more of this on the web forum.

I believe you are right in your final estimations of the location of Britannia and Miller's Court -- works for me.


Adam or Greg,

Would it be possible for any of you to insert a blow-up from any of the pictures of the area around the alleged Miller's Court? It is a bit hard to see the details.

All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris

Post Number: 923
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Glenn
Here is the section you wanted
Chrismill
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 1187
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Chris.

Looks like it would need some processing through Photoshop, though. It is rather blurry.
My main concern is exactly which part of those lower houses in the yard that is 13 Miller's Court (because there seem to be two, possibly with an opening between them). Is it the one with the corner to the far left of the opening gap, or is it the one to the right, with the high-lighted gable? I would bet on the first one, but I am not sure.

Unfortunately one can't see the dispositions of the windows or other characteristic details.

All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Greg Hutton
Police Constable
Username: Greg

Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 7:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Glenn,

It's the left one as marked on the photo belowblow up
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 1192
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Greg,

Thank you. That's what I thought, since the archade and the narrow alley probably is situated to the right of the corner by the arrow. It makes sense.

All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris

Post Number: 924
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting stuff- the only problem I have with the identification of this building as Miller's Court is that the section arrowed above is obviously at least a three storey, if not a four storey building with what is called ,I believe, a "hipped" roof and attic windows.
All references I have seen to the buildings in Miller's Court say they are simple two storey buildings (compare the illustration below)
Chris



mill2story
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 1196
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm, interesting, Chris. You may have a point. Unless there was built a third storey added to it in later years, after 1888. That is at least quite a common occurrence here at home one bumps into during local history studies, also on very old and shabby buildings.

But are you sure the buildings on the photo can't pass for a two-storey building? I am really not certain. That is why I would have liked to see the disposition of the windows.

Better check that out and see what the known photos of Miller's Court say...

All the best

(Message edited by Glenna on February 28, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris

Post Number: 925
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My apologies for the above post which is in error!
After posting I remembered seeing an illustration of the front of Miller's Coiurt from Dorset Street - I have tracked this down - it was in the Penny Illustrated of 17 November and this indeed shows the building that fronted on to Dorset Street to be three storey topped with a "hipped" roof, very much as in the photo about which this thread is concerned.
Glad to put the record straight
Chris

pia
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 1197
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah! OK Chris. I thought so. Well, we cracked that one, then.

All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris

Post Number: 926
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Incidentally the illustration in the Penny Illustrated as mentioned above also includes a view down Miller's Court away from Kelly's room which may be of interest
Chris

pib

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