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Daniel R
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 2:30 am: |       |
Speculation:
Emma Smith and Martha Tabram – Victims to the Same Killer(s)
Both women were assaulted early on a Tuesday morning.
Smith claimed she was attacked and robbed by two or three men. One younger than the others (perhaps nineteen). On December 8 1887 Margaret Hames, a fellow lodger of Smith’s, had been attacked in a similar manner. Though badly hurt she was not killed.
Pearly Poll (who had been with Tabram the night before her murder) said she and Tabram had been with two men. Tabram was assaulted in the early hours of a Tuesday morning.
Whilst Pearly Poll had claimed the men to be soldiers, she later miss-identified (perhaps purposefully) them in a line-up and she was no longer considered a credible witness.
Is it possible the two men who assaulted Smith early on a Tuesday morning in April were the same two that assaulted Tabram on a Tuesday morning in August?
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Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 183
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 6:03 pm: | |
Hi there,
Nothing is impossible, Daniel. However, I don't believe they fell victim of the same murderer(s). I have a strong feeling that Tabram could have been an early attempt by the Ripper, although that can't be stated for sure. The modus operandi are not quite the same in Emma Smith's case, and as I recall Smith was raped. Tabram was stabbed multiple times, there was no evidence of a struggle and sexual intercourse couldn't be confirmed. The offender was probably alone ( a gang of two or three juvenile attackers would probably have made too much noise in the stair-way where the murder took place.
It is interesting speculations, well worth a serious discussion, although I rather go for that Emma Smith was attacked by a gang of young ruffians or hooligans, probably in their teens, but here we basically only have her own statements to go on, nothing else.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 697
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 6:32 pm: | |
Hi Glenn, Daniel
Hames was with Smith on the night she was attacked, which is odd, but there you go. This case is full of weird coincidences!
Robert |
Melanie Petty
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 4:56 pm: | |
Hello all!
My name is Melanie and I am curious about a few things concerning Emma Smith.
1. I read somewhere that the woman who saw Emma Smith, Margaret Hames, actually spoke to Emma as she was hurrying home from being attacked herself. I was wondering if anyone might have seen the same thing and could point me back to that information.
2. Robert Linford stated that Hames was with Emma Smith on the night she was attacked. I am wondering where I might find this information.
Thank you
Melanie |
Daniel R
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 1:52 am: | |
Glenn, Robert,
Thankyou for your responses.
I am fairly new to the ripper case. My interest began last Christmas when I obtained a copy of Rumbelow’s The Complete Jack the Ripper (published ’79) from a second hand bookstore. More recently I acquired Evans and Skinners Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, though there are a few key texts I am hoping to acquire in the not to distant future.
For myself, one of the primary issues in the case is determining just who was and who wasn’t a victim of the Ripper. Before choosing a suspect, or finding a motive, it its imperative (in my belief) to determine which of the victims were killed by the same hand.
Therein lay my reasoning to attempt a lose tie-in with the Tabram murder and the Smith murder.
My reckoning lay in the fact that both may have been victim to at least two, if not three attackers. With this in mind I also thought of Elizabeth Stride, again a possible victim to two men.
To take the matter one step further I believe Eddowes and Stride to be victims of the same killer(s). With this theory we would see four victims linked to the one hand.
However, since my initial post my views on Tabram have changed.
Whilst the number of aggressor’s in Tabram’s case is in truth unknown, it is on the balance of probabilities that the killer was acting alone. The association with her death and the soldiers is (with the time between there meeting and the murder) somewhat invalid. And, with the scene of the crime it is probable only one assailant was involved.
Whilst the evidence for Smith is a little stronger (though still sketchy at best) I believe her to be (as she claimed) victim to three assailants. And as suggested by Glenn she was probably attacked by a group of young ruffians, not the ripper.
Still, this is all speculation.
Perhaps these ‘young ruffians’ took to more than rape. Perhaps they began to kill prostitutes. Perhaps they started as a gang, but split up and began work on their own.
Will we ever know?
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 717
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 1:47 pm: | |
Hi Melanie, Daniel
Melanie, sorry I worded my post ambiguously. I meant Hames was with Smith the night Smith was attacked, not that Hames was with Smith the night Hames was attacked. So I think your questions reduce from two to one. If you go to "official documents" on the left, and then click "inquest testimony", you can read what Hames had to say.
Daniel, I suspect that Smith was attacked by a gang of thugs whom she knew. She seems to have been reluctant to give information.However, she describes one of the men as "nineteen" or "about nineteen", which is a strange figure to pull out of the hat. Why not "nineteen or twenty" or "about twenty"?
Robert |
Alan Sharp
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 8:24 pm: | |
Hi Daniel
It seems to be largely overlooked in most of the books but I personally feel that the attacker of Annie Millwood and Martha Tabram are far more likely to be the same person, and probably JTR.
The Millwood attack, to me, has the feel of a fledgling killer acting on the spur of the moment but still not with the confidence to follow through on his actions. This attack was in February, and assuming the intention was to kill, in which the attacker failed, then a combination of fear of capture and fear of a second failure could well explain why the attacker did not strike again for almost six months.
Like you I am fairly new to serious study of the Ripper, hence not yet registered although it's in the post, but not new to the study of the serial killer genre so I tend to look for patterns that I have observed in other cases. |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 241
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 9:49 am: | |
Hi Alan
I agree with you completely. There are indeed some indications on that Millwood could have been an early attempt by the Ripper, and the link between her and Tabram, looking at the cicumstances, are stronger than those between Smith and Tabram. I have thought along the same lines myself.
As far as Smith and Ada Wilson are concerned I think I'd rather exclude them from the list of JtR victims.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Thomas C. Wescott
Police Constable
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 3:00 pm: | |
RE: Tabram and Smith...
It seems unlikely, considering the times involved, that Pearly Poll's soldiers had anything to do with Tabram's murder. As for Tabram and Smith, it should be remembered that they were killed within spitting distance of one another, and although both were probably robbed of any money they may have had on them (as were the Ripper victims), robbery was clearly not the prime motive. As for the difference in M.O., that could have been influenced by the group dynamic; if only one person was involved in Tabram's murder, and that person was one of the three who attacked Smith, then this single attacker would be unencumbered by the will of his cohorts and his own will, and thus his individual M.O., would be singularly evident. Having said that, it should also be remembered that at the time of Nichol's murder, she was believed by the police to have been killed by the same man (men) as Smith and Tabram. It was only because the bodies piled up, and these bodies had slit throats like Nichols but unlike Smith/Tabram, that they were dropped from the list. One last thing - look on a map of the murder sites and you'll find that Tabram and Smith fall smack-dab in the middle. That may mean nothing, it may mean something. Who knows really?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 764
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 8:11 am: | |
Hi Tom
I agree that JTR may have been a member of the gang that attacked Smith. One worry I have, though, is that she wasn't wounded with a knife, so that Jack must either have not had his knife on him, or didn't want to use it - both of which seem unRipperish, though his not having a knife might be explained if the Smith outrage was his first serious attack.
I suppose it partly depends on how Wilson and Millwood are viewed.
Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 355
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:47 am: | |
Hi Tom,
Interesting post.
One last thing - look on a map of the murder sites and you'll find that Tabram and Smith fall smack-dab in the middle.
Oddly enough, I was doing exactly that yesterday morning, in connection with a recent 'double event' here in Croydon.
And Robert, I have to say that to me, the horrific assault on Smith appears decidedly Ripperish, in that I would expect it to have had a profound effect on his future thoughts and actions had he learned the details, and especially if he had some connection with the gang who was involved, or the attack itself.
While we can only speculate that Jack may have had inside knowledge of the attack on Smith, possibly even witnessing the assault that proved fatal, as a member of the gang, if not actively participating, instigating or carrying it out himself, it might make some kind of horrible sense.
Later victims, accepted as the ripper's, weren't given the chance to tell the tale of any of the experiments he tried on them. And although one gang member might have gone on to suspect a fellow member of being the ripper at one time or another, especially if he showed excessive enthusiasm for certain injuries inflicted on Smith which were never to be repeated in their company, I doubt they would have considered coming forward with information, reward or no reward, knowing that Smith's murder had been linked with the ripper once and could easily be again.
The geographical closeness of some of these supposedly non-related but extraordinarily vicious crimes is really hard to ignore sometimes.
Love,
Caz |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 254
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:07 pm: | |
Alan,
I agree that its possible Millwood and Tabram were killed by the same hand.
Smith..mmmmm...not so sure. I can see Toms senario (by the way, good to see you back Tom) though.
Anyone noticed the description between Ada Wilsons attacker and the man seen by Cox with Kelly ?
Monty
PS Millwood & Mylett are not far apart, distance wise....for what its worth. Very do-able. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 766
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:19 pm: | |
Hi Caz
While the attack on Smith may have been psychologically Ripperish, I feel there'd be more chance of Jack having been a member of the gang
if Wilson and Millwood weren't in fact attacked by Jack. Otherwise it would mean that a man who wounded twice with a knife, attacked a third woman and either didn't want to use his knife or didn't have it on him. Though it's quite possible that he didn't have it on him, I feel the absence of knife wounds is better explained if Smith was Jack's first attack.
If he was indeed in the gang, I suppose there's no reason why the other members should have particularly suspected him of being the Ripper. But if they did suspect him, they'd have been tempted to bump him off, wouldn't they? Not only was he affecting the extortion business by driving women off the streets, but he was a loose cannon who was due to be caught at any moment and who might have told the police all about their part in the attack on Smith.
Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 358
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 4:50 am: | |
All good points, Robert.
Love,
Caz |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 9:44 am: | |
Speculation and ingenuity of the known facts have solved many a criminal case.
I would like to speculate that perhaps Emma Smith was atacked by one man namely, Jack the ripper , and not a gang of young thugs.
My reason for speculating this is based on the fact that Emma smith was a Prostitute, who had been injured in the course of her soliciting.
She's not in my opinion going to tell the police that she was actively soliciting when she was attacked, thus she made up a story about three young men attacking her.
Ah, you might say, if she was attacked by a single man and not a group, why didn't she just say that she had been attacked by a single man.
I think she was a known prostitute and she realised the police would have questioned her on her activities had she said a single man had attacked her.
This is of course speculation, but known serial killers have used blunt instruments on their victims, Neville Heath being one, so there is a trait here.
Ada wilson had been attacked in March, if this was the rippers first victim and many people think this a possibility, then the next accepted victim, who was beyond doubt a ripper victim was Nichols in August.
So what did the killer do between March and August, kill Smith and Tabram, i suspect.
Clive.
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esm
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 8:49 am: | |
This might be of interest. It’s the Pall Mall Gazette of 24.August 1888. The second murder alluded to is obviously the murder of Emma Smith since it was again Bank Holiday and the murder occured in roughly the same area. So the contemporary press connected – admittedly in this case in a very superficial way – the two murders with each other.
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Neil K. MacMillan
Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 37
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 5:23 pm: | |
My opinion is that Martha Tabram was the Ripper's first attempt. Emma Smith was exactly what she said she was a victim of gang violence. (Note again this is just my opinion! )
Smith's death was due to periodonitis caused by a blunt object being forced into her vagina. Tabram was stabbed 39 times. I think the gang wanted to send a message to the unfortunates inthe area. In Tabram's and the subsequent cases the murder was the prime concern.In Smith's case it was the mesage. They didn't care one way or another if SMith lived or died. Kindest regards Neil |
jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 5:36 pm: | |
Ref: Emma Smith
Must admit I've read all your posts with some interest as I have been considering the Two Jack idea.
The logic behind Tabram being hit by two killers are the reported knife wounds. jack is unlikely to have stopped and changed weapons half way.
Nichols and Chapman were stabbed by one killer but this does not exclude the possibility of an accomplice or the fact that Jack might have desided to go it alone.
Then there is Stride. With the possible account of a look out and a smaller blade.
Eddows could be the job of a lone Jack but the very pulic location and the bobbies would make sense for a look out.
Kelly. There is some evidence to suggest that there may have been an accomplice. Enough evidence for it to be mentioned in parliment and an reward (amnesty..not sure on facts) offered if said accomplice gave up Jack.
Just a thought. Brain working over time tonight.
Jeff |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 608
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 11:32 am: | |
Jeff,
Check out the Suspects topic.
Look for Joe Barnett.
The enter the 'Two men in Kelly room' thread.
Check that out re the 2 man theories....especially the archieved posts.
Monty
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Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 425
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:54 am: | |
Yes, Jeff, I think the archives are better as you may want to excuse the Bill and Ben theories.
Haven't heard of the two men on Tabram theory. |
Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 1:00 pm: | |
Cheers Monty thanks for the tip
Was always suspicious of Bill and Ben.
Like your thinking. Its the Stride and Kelly murder that got me thinking. Any idea where the reports of two men involved with Kelly murder came from?
I think its unlikely but if Smith was attacked by a gang perhaps some sort of partnership might have developed. Perhaps she was covering her tracks perhaps she told the truth, who knows.
I think the thought process valuable. It fits with some ideas.
Ta jeff
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Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 56
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 4:58 pm: | |
Monty:
I don't believe Jack changed weapons with Martha Tabram. I believe he used something akin to a dagger and was forced to wiggle it around to remove it from the sternum accounting for the difference in the wounds. If he had a good dagger something made of say Sheffield, Wilkinson or Soligen steel the edge could have been honed to near scapel like sharpness.
I seriously doubt that Jack would have counted on the silence of another to keep him out of custody. He, in mu humble opinion, hunted alone and playerd his cards close to his vest. Neil |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 701
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 11:55 am: | |
Neil,
I agree. Never thought any other with regards to Martha's killer changing weapons.
I know this is your 'area'. I have a question if you dont mind.
How high do you think the chances are of Marthas killer breaking the dagger during the attack ? Im sorta going along the lines of killer starts assault, dagger snaps, killer carrys on assault. This would obviously make a difference in the entry wound. Would/could this explain Kileens feeling that a knife and a bayonet type weapon was used ?
Curious Monty
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Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 58
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 4:16 pm: | |
Monty; I'm a learner here but I think it's a possibility. Having said that I would want to know what the wounds looked like to Kileen. If there were jagged edges then I would say yes. Even if the blade didn't break and he just had to move it about to loosen it that would explain Kileen's remarks I think |
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