| Author |
Message |
    
Faye
Police Constable
Username: Faye
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 9:48 am: |       |
For some reason, miss Stride is the most fascinating of the canonical victims to me. I do wonder if she was a JTR victim or not, for the obvious reasons.
Lately a lot of the canonical victim's backgrounds have been researched in detail and my question is if there is more known about ms Stride than some general facts found in archives. I am wondering what kind of family background ms Stride had, how she ended up prostituting herself, what made her leave her native Sweden and some other things.
Does anyone know if someone has researched that or is researching it atm? If this isnt the case, I might actually do an attempt myself. Could someone give me advice on where to start? Going trough swedish paperwork should not give a problem. My swedish is limited, but my boyfriend is a native swede and he would not have any problems helping me out there.
Thanks
Faye |
John Savage
Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 42
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 12:40 pm: | |
Faye
If you have not already read it, may I suggest Phillip Sugden's excellent book "The Complete History of Jack The Ripper". He gives over a few pages to Stride's early life in Sweden and her arrival in England.
Regards,
John Savage
|
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 3:42 pm: | |
Dear Faye ;
Can you ask your boyfriend if there is a Swedish term or pet name that sounds like "Lipski". Perhaps if we can nail down the fact that her lover Michael Kidney was there that night, it would help eliminate her as a victim of Jack the Ripper. Thanks!
Joan |
Faye
Police Constable
Username: Faye
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 4:56 pm: | |
Hello 
John, I have read Sudgen's book several times, but it has less detail than I would like to see, if possible. Perhaps someone could investigate and make a little booklet like it was done about ms Chapman and ms Eddowes I might even look into it myself. I would like the challenge.
Joan, I asked my boyfriend and he said "Nothing I can think about, not even close". I'm afraid that there is no new theory there, sorry. However even if there was a word in swedish resembling Lipski, it would not prove anything in my opinion, since I doubt mr Kidney spoke swedish. It was known that miss Stride spoke fluently english ("without a trace of a foreign accent"). I doubt the two lovers spoke swedish together really
Faye |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 61
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 6:35 pm: | |
Hi Faye,
Can I suggest that you look into the brilliant research compiled by a Swedish researcher called Klas Lithner. He wrote a three page article in True Detective Magazine back in 1987 about Elizabeth Stride's Swedish history, and basically other writers have copied from this work since. He was also credited in Rumbelow's book.
Sorry that I don't have a copy of that article now, maybe someone else on the message boards can help on that?
Best of luck Faye if you do publish a booklet on Liz, I do know that Klas Lithner traced the family of Elizabeth's sister Anna Christina Gustafsdotter, but apparently they didn't have a photo of Liz.
All the best
Neal |
Faye
Police Constable
Username: Faye
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 7:14 pm: | |
hi Neal
Thanks for pointing this out I am very interested in reading the booklets you wrote but I haven't had the chance to order a copy for myself. I sure will in the future!
I have tried to find out where mr Lithner can be reached, but unfortunatly it seems he has passed away.
I am very interested in reading his work, and would appreciate it if someone could send it to me, in english or swedish. Please contact me here if you have a copy.
Thanks a lot
Faye |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 159
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 8:34 am: | |
Hi, Faye:
There are a couple of other references that you might like to know about. In the most recent (April/July) issue of Ripper Notes, Des McKenna has an article entitled "A Short Look at Long Liz" based on a talk that he gave at the Cloak & Dagger Club in London. In addition, Swedish writer Birgita Leufstadius has written a book about Stride that is in Swedish. Presumably this might contain information on her from Swedish records so it should be worth getting.
All the best
Chris |
Wolf Vanderlinden
Sergeant
Username: Wolf
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 9:52 am: | |
Hi Faye.
The Leufstadius book is titled Jack the Rippers Tredje Offer and it was published in Sweden in 1994 by Warne Förlag. |
Tomas gustavsson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 4:42 am: | |
Hi all!
Concerning Elizabeth Stride (born Elisabeth Gustafsdotter) and other Swedish connections there are some facts worth mentioning:
* Her birtplace in the parish of Torslanda outside Gothenburg still stands and also the church in Torslanda where she was confirmed. There is a picture of her birthplace in Leufstadius book.
* Sven Olsson, the clerk and organist at the Swedish Lutheran church in Prince's Square was a witness at the inquest and had knowned Stride for 17 years. So he must have been in London since about 1871. He left for Sweden 1896 and went to Osby in the very south of the country. He had a cottage in that village with a sign "Calm Cottage" outside. He had three daughters, two born in London, and was said not willing to talk about the Ripper-case since coming back to Sweden. Was also a very religious man who had a very speciall habit. He went around to auctions of books in the countryside outside Osby buying the items he thought was bad for the youths. Then he took the books back to his cottage burning them in the garden! A rather odd behaviour. He lived until 1932 and was over 90 when passed away.
* Nikaner Benelius is a suspect and said to have been a "Swedish traveller". Benelius is a very odd surname in Sweden and Nikaner isn't at all a Swedish name. Can't be found in any old name-registers. It could have been a "petname". The letter he wrote was signed N.A Benelius and maybee N.A can stand for Nils Arne - a common Swedish name or something like that.
Just some thougts and if anyone want some helps with anything concerning Stride or Sweden etc, just feel free to ask!
Take care, |
Faye
Police Constable
Username: Faye
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 7:47 pm: | |
Thank you Chris, Wolf and Tomas for the information
I think I am going to order the Leufstadus book, is it a good read? I am only a beginner at swedish, and I still need tons of help reading or speaking. My boyfriend is patient but if he wants to help me translate a whole book? :P
My theory on the Nikaner name is that maybe someone wrote it down wrong (because of accent or whatever since swedish does sound very strange to someone who speaks a language that isnt closely related, like english)
Mr Olssen sounds like a bit of an odd man. Perhaps the whole Stride murder was a traumatizing experience to him? people often do strange things after being traumatized.
med vanliga halsningar
Faye |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 224
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 1:36 pm: | |
Hi Faye
Stride must have been quite a linguist, if she really spoke English without an accent, and also spoke Yiddish.
Do you know if there was a sizeable Jewish population in Sweden at this time? I was just wondering whether she could have got a head start in Yiddish there, or whether she learned it all after arriving here.
Robert |
Faye
Sergeant
Username: Faye
Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 4:11 pm: | |
hi Robert
As far as I can tell there was only a small jewish population in sweden. The numbers I found:
1860 approx 1000
1880 approx 3000
However, it seems more likely to me that ms Stride just had a talent for languages. It is quite difficult to learn a new language, especially as an adult (I am speaking from experience, heh) and especially to the extent where you lose an accent. My guess is that Elisabeth (who according to what I read regularly cleaned houses for jewish people) picked it up while she was in England.
Faye |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 226
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 4:30 pm: | |
Hi Faye
Thanks for that information. It's a shame about Liz - nowadays she might have been an interpreter, etc.
Good luck with your language studies.
Robert |
Stepan Poberowski
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 3:59 am: | |
Hi Faye
I have this book and can send you scaned pages by email
All the best,
Stepan Poberowski |
Tomas Gustavsson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 5:13 am: | |
Hi Faye!
Thanks for thinkings and I agree with you that Nikaner is a misshearing, but also the surname, Benelius is rare in Sweden.
I think the Leufstadius book is rare to get, cause the Swedish bookshops only keep stocks for 3 or 4 years and it's rare even in the second hands.
The book is good in giving a background about Stride and the unfortunate women in those years. But Leufstadius has a rather naive conclusions about what may happended to Stride. She suggests that Druitt came to Gotheburg and met Stride b-e-f-o-r-e she went to London 1866. A problem is that Druitt wasn't 10 years old at that time. Hmmmmm.
Take care! |
Faye
Sergeant
Username: Faye
Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 8:32 pm: | |
hey everyone
Robert, thank you I do believe that it is a shame ms Stride did not get a chance to do something with her talents as she probably could have in this time and age, but a lot of people didnt get much chances back than.
Stepan, I would very much appreciate it if you could email it to me. I am very interested in reading about it! My mail address is Faye@home.nl. Thanks in advance!
Tomas, I personally do not believe Druitt can be considered a serious ripper suspect because imo nothing other than the date of his suicide points to him being a ripper suspect. The link Stride/Druitt made me laugh out loud. Very naive indeed. I am still planning to look into things more. I assume you are swedish yourself, would you mind helping me find more info?
kind regards
Faye |
Tomas Gustavsson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 10:15 am: | |
Hi Faye and All!
Concerning Strides English-language one should remember that she'd seemed to been a clever pupil back in school in Stora Tumlehed and did well during confirmation in Torslanda. She´d also been in London for over 20 years and only had (what it seems) Swedish connections with the Swedish Church were she got aid and sometimes visited the readingroom for sailors reading Swedish newspapers.
By today I'm sure she'd been well educated and a university student.
Among the witness that says she spoke without accent is Olsson who hade been there less time and surely was impressed by the way she spoke English.
Another interesting thing about the murder of Stride is that the Swedish Churchbook in Prince's Square mentioned Jack The Ripper as Strides murder already on the 1st of October.(If the note was written that day??) The vicar was a Johannes Palmér a very carefull man concerning writings!
Yes, Faye I'm a Swede working as a sportsreporter but very interested in London history and JTR. Of course I help you if I can, feel free to ask!
Take care All! |
Stepan Poberowski
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 4:09 am: | |
Hi Faye
I'll scan the book during the nearest week. Do you want whole book or only the chapter concerning to Stride's background (im other chapters the book is builded on Don Rumbelow's book)?
All the best,
Stepan |
HenrikLindberg
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 7:19 pm: | |
For your information to some questions above (I am Swedish): Nikaner is a miss-spelling. Nikanor was - although rare - a name that you met sometimes in the 19th century, mostly in the North of Sweden. I believe it's something out of the bible and then swedified. In the well-known writer Sara Lidmans books there was recently a northener whose name is Nikanor.
A propos "Lipski": I know of at least one girl named Elisabet (usual name in Sweden too) who is called "Lissi" and one called "Lisbet".
I have read the book about Jack's third victim, I found the author a bit too fanciful imaging a lovestory btwn Liz & Jack. What was a bit funny was that she had visited Stride's relatives, and the old ones still remembered that "my great-aunt came to a terrible ending in London thanks to immoral living, we were always ashamed about that" or something in that style. |
Eduardo Zinna
Sergeant
Username: Eduardo
Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 12:13 pm: | |
Hello Henrik and Tomas,
I'm trying to get some information concerning Liz Stride's Swedish background. I'm particularly interested in photographs of her natal house, the church where she was confirmed or any views of Torslanda and Gothenburg which have not changed overmuch since Liz's times. Please exclude the photographs published in Birgitta Leufstadius's book which are not currently available for copyright reasons.
If you are in a position to help, please email me at editorez@yahoo.co.uk.
Henrik: Nicanor [sic] was not an uncommon name in Argentina at the beginning of this century. There is a poem by Borges: 'A Don Nicanor Paredes', for instance.
Cheers,
Eduardo |
DeFeis
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 9:21 am: | |
Hello
I am new to this messageboard, though i have been an amateur "ripperologist" for a few years. Living in Gothenburg, Liz Stride is ofcourse the victim which interest me the most.
I am currently working on a article about Liz background, hopefully to be publsihed in Ripperologist during 2004. I will take several photos, both from Tumlehed (which is only a 20 min drive from my house) as well as other Stride connected photos from the Gothenburg area. If anybody want ro request any photos from Gothenburg or Torslanda, feel free to contact me on danidefeis_metal@hotmail.com |
Mara
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 1:54 am: | |
Can you tell me if the source claiming Liz spoke with no trace of an accent is a legitimate source and is there more than one source confirming it? I find it hard to believe she could lose all trace of an accent if she was already an adult by the time she moved to England. Thanks. |
Mara
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 10:24 pm: | |
Would someone please translate "Help me" and "They have found me" into Swedish for me? I also have another general question that may impolite for the boards, I'm not sure. How accessible were condoms in 1888, were they as effective as now, and was there any other type of birth control? I can't imagine these women would buy them, would they? Did they know condoms protected from syphilis? Does anyone know where I might find out more about this subject? Thanks. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:32 am: | |
Hi Mara,
Help me! = Hjälp mig!
They have found me = De har hittat mig
Condoms is an invention that is much older than the 19th century, but they were unpractical and usually made out of fabrics -- I don't believe they were used within prostitution circuits. Syphilis was a great problem, which would indicate that condoms were not in common use. Liz Stride was already during her youth (working as a prostitute in Gothenburg) treated for syphilis, and there became subject to the usual quite unpleasant treatment with quicksilver. The awareness about condoms seem to have been non-existent.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 7:03 pm: | |
Hi Mara; If you check on the thread of "Marys pregnancy" there is a link and some info about the history of contraception that might be very informative for what you want to know.
Don't worry, nothing you ask will shock these hard cases on this board!
Joan |
Mara
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2004 - 5:36 pm: | |
Thank you very much for your help, both Glenn and Joan. I forgot to ask one other thing. Does anyone know off-hand how big was the knife that was thought to be used on Elizabeth? I read on some page it was the sort of knife a baker would use (or that may have been in reference to the found knife- I can't remember at the moment), but what does that look like? How big is it?
Is that the one piece of evidence that makes Ripperologists suspect Liz wasn't a Ripper victim?
Oh and I was also curious to know if anyone knows anything about Inspector Pinhorn other than his name. Thanks |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 905
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 2:10 pm: | |
I found the link below from 1998 which details the family history research of Barbara and Ken Stride from New Zealand - might be of interest to those are interested in her background.
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/LONDON/1998-07/0901000722 |
Brandon Krogh
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 5:39 am: | |
Hello Mara,
According to the A-Z Inspector Pinhorn was born 1849, was, along with Superintendent West, in charge of the on-site investigation of Stride's murder. He was also in charge of the on-site investigation of the Pinchin Street 'torso murder' in Sept. 1889. |
Kitty
Police Constable
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 3:13 pm: | |
Hello everyone,
Steve has kindly opened an account for me and so I'd like to introduce myself as an interested researcher into Liz Stride's background. Its great to see some other researchers on-screen.
My question is, re the information available on Liz, where is it all coming from, in essence? It seems to me that alot has been derived from researchers who were journalists in the 19th century. How can we be sure if, say, our liz is the Liz who was recorded as suffering from a disease in hospital in Gothenburg? Does anyone have any thoughts? I'm going over to Gothenburg soon and would greatly appreciate reccomendations as to what to look out for.
best,
Kitty. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1298
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 3:43 pm: | |
Hello Kitty,
Well, Sweden has very good records and well kept original documents from the 19th century regarding prostitutes. The best thing is to turn to the national archives (especially those that are called "Landsarkiv", located in some Swedish cities) but also local ones, usually found in connection with the town halls or "Lokalarkiv". A couple of good latter-day researchers like Klas Lithner (who was a good friend of mine, but is now dead) has studied those documents. Klas Lithner wrote at least one important essay on Stride.
Apparently Stride started out as a prostitute connected to the legalised brothels, where the women at least twice a week was subjected to medical examinations and they were also registred in police books (sometimes with photos). She seems to have drifted out on the streets as an illegal prostitute rather quickly, though, and also contracted syphilis and gained treatment for it (if we call it that).
So I don't think it is the 19th century news-papers that are our main sources for the knowledge about the life of Elisabeth Stride, but modern research. Swedish police files from the 19th century -- and especially those concerning prostitutes -- are in general in good condition. The medical records can be a bit tricky, though, but that can differ locally, depending on where in Sweden you are.
Note that I myself haven't studied the records and files in Gothenburg, so I am not that well informed about the nature of the archive material in that particular city.
Good luck and all the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 658
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 9:30 am: | |
Hi, all
I think you will all be interested to know that the March issue of Ripperologist contains an exciting contribution from Gothenburg native Daniel Olsson on "Elisabeth's Story: A Documentary Narrative of Long Liz Stride's Early Life in Sweden."
The cover of the issue features a magnificent color picture of the farmhouse where Ms. Stride was born on 27 November 1843. In the article itself, besides another photograph of the farmhouse, we include a photograph of Torslanda Church, where her parents were married on 27 October 1839 and where Liz was baptised on 5 December 1843, as well as numerous documents on her life before coming to England.
The article dispells a number of misconceptions about Elisabeth Stride's early life while raising some new questions. In short, Mr. Olsson's article makes a substantial contribution to knowledge of Ms. Stride's Swedish background. Mr. Olsson is to be congratulated for such solid work and we are pleased to feature it in this month's issue.
Best regards
Chris George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Kitty
Police Constable
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 9:26 am: | |
Just had time to have a brief look. Thanks very much for the responses all. Yes I heard about the article in Ripperologist; it's good people are taking her seriously as a victim at last. Thanks for all the info about the Gothenburg archives; that's great.
While I'm keen on the magazine updatesand the old expert's views, new ideas are always good ones. I'm hopeful of finding some new information this year, in Gothenburg.
I also had the chance this month to have a look at some old newspaper articles; it does seem that it is indeed the case that the research basis for all the 'modern' discoveries on Liz Stride is entirely derived from the old journalistic observations. These were very interesting to see, written in all the old Victoriana London style of reporting. The reporters in England 1888 were frequently convinced of police incompetence, and very industriously investigated for themselves, in a way we just don't see anymore. I'd be happy to supply article sources if people are interested.
Keep in touch everyone and thankyou so much for the response. |
