| Author |
Message |
    
Tommy Simpson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:17 am: | 
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Re:The attack on Ada Wilson in March 1888. Ada told the police that the man whom attacked her was sunburnt. Now believe me i have lived on this Fair Isle for nigh on fifty years and apart from visiting Cypress one Christmass, i have never ever been sunburnt in March. How comes this man was sunburnt, was there a burst of freak sunshine in March 1888? The description of the man seems to be similar to several of the sightings of Jack, age, moustache etc. Was this the first recorded attack of Jack the Ripper? |
Gary Weatherhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 2:42 am: |
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Tommy
If I didn't know better I'd say this man, who does resemble subsequent probable sightings of JTR with future victims, looked a lot like a sailor.
Best Regards
Gary |
Monty
Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 49
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 7:23 am: |
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Tommy,
The sunburn in March thing has come up before.
Some believe he was a sailor from far off shores while others feel that he may have had a skin condition which may have been mistaken for sunburn.
And some say it was down to the devils demon booze and hard life.
Monty
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Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 233
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 7:30 am: |
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Could one person's 'sunburnt' be another person's 'blotchy'?
Similar to the blotchy-faced man who was seen going into Kelly's room with her? |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 52
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 7:55 am: |
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Marie,
Ive thought that for many years...and I know Im not alone.
'Blotchy' and the 'sunburn kid' seem rather samey dont they ?
Monty
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Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 238
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 3:03 pm: |
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They do indeed seem samey, Monty.
Roseacea? 'Gin blossoms'?
Hmmmm.
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Bob Hinton
Detective Sergeant
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 73
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 4:00 am: |
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Don't men working at the blast furnaces of steel mills have reddened, tanned faces?
Bob |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 53
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 12:38 pm: |
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Marie, Bob,
There could be many illness, diseases and reasons for the red face.
Diet, working conditions or a family condition...the list could go on couldnt it ?
Bob, while Ive got your attention. What are your views on the photo of 'George Hutchinson' taken just before his death.
Real deal ?
He looks a bit weathered to me ??
Monty
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Bob Hinton
Detective Sergeant
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 74
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 2:30 am: |
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Monty,
Which photo is that?
Bob |
Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 246
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 5:42 am: |
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Bob, I think Monty is refering to the photo on this website?
http://www.holmesonscreen.com/RipperSuspects.htm
A poster named Tim linked to it on the Barnett board.
I do imagine that blast furnace workers would have reddened faces. But I personally wouldn't want to work near a furnace if I had a mustache- wouldn't facial hair tend to get singed a lot?
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Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 156
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 7:18 am: |
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Marie, if you had a moustache, I wouldn't blame you if you never ventured out at all.
Robert |
Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 247
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 8:02 am: |
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Candy Morgan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 10:30 am: |
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Hello Bob,
I reallize you don't know me from Adam's housecat, but my father worked twenty two years in the steel mills (Teledyne at Pittsburg, Pa.) and he had neither reddened, tanned skin nor a blotchy appearance. He supervised the big rolling machines and later the cook pots.
My brother, on the other hand, worked as a gandy dancer and DID have blotchy skin, but he was fair skinned to begin with. (Gandy dancer is the guy who walks around the catwalk and knocks the accumulation of ash and dirt back down the smokestack into the furnace.) I would put his blotchiness down to being constantly exposed to the wind at the top of the stacks, however.
Candy |
John Savage
Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:47 am: |
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Hi Marie,
The picture you give in a link in your earlier mail is a photograph of a George William Topping Hutchinson 1866-1938.
This photograph was supplied by his son Reginald to Melvyn Fairclough who included it in his book "The Ripper and the Royals" (Duckworth, London 1992)
Regards,
John Savage
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Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 59
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 12:21 pm: |
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Bob, Marie & John,
Thats the one...sorry, I forgot to mention it was in Melvyns book....thanks for that.
That Hutchinson.
You can post it upon a Hutchinson Board if you like (saves clogging this one) but like I said earlier...real deal ??
Monty
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Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 253
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 2:36 pm: |
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John: thanks for the info.
Is that definitely the Hutchinson who made his statement to the Police?
Wasn't Hutchinson once described as a man 'of military appearance'? I think the man in the photograph fits that description somewhat. |
John Savage
Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 38
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 3:05 pm: |
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Marie,
I don't think we can say for certain that this man is the same as the Goerge Hutchinson who gave a statement. All we can say is that he has the correct name, and lived, I beleive, in the East End at the time.
The man in the photograph was by trade a plumber, although I suppose he could at sometime have been in the Army.
Regards,
John Savage
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Gary Weatherhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 1:28 pm: |
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Hi. All
I thought the Hutchinson photo in Melvyn's book turned out to the wrong Hutchinson.
As for Ada Wilson, she got a very good look at the man and used the word sunburnt. A sunburn is rarely blotchy. The man was depicted as too young to have gin blosoms-unless he had been drinking prodigiously since the time he was a real youngster. I'll defer to my wife who is a pharmascist (chemist?) on the roseacea question. It almost always covers only spots on the cheeks and much more rarely the nose.
Marie; I wouldn't work in a blast furnace with my goatee and we are all virtually certain you don't have a moustache.
I quess the point of all this is whether or not people believe Wilson's attacker was the Ripper making a sort of dry run. Shoot me down but I think it's a very good possibility.
Best Regards
Gary |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 63
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 11:25 am: |
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Gary,
Im with you on this. I also believe Susan Ward may have been an attempted target.
I also believe the blotchyness/sunburntness (are they words ?? I think not) are not permanent.
There are alot of fair hair/ Ginger people I know that get red faces when they are agitated or excerted and I think this to be the case....but then again !!
Monty
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Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 256
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 3:03 pm: |
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John: so we're not sure it's the right Hutchinson, then. But he sort of looks how I'd imagined him (not that that's worth anything!)
Gary, you're right about the gin blossoms. I've seen leaflets about roseacea, and it sort of looked blotchy to me, but I'll wait to hear your wife's opinion on that one.
Monty, I agree with you in that I also know people with ginger hair who tend to get red in the face when excited, or when they've been out in the wind.
I do now think that Ada Wilson was an early attempt by the killer.
And no, I don't have a mustache. 
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Tommy Simpson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 10:53 am: |
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Would someone suffering from severe cirrisis, pardon the spelling, have the look of someone with sunburn. Have seen people on the street with this condition, or a condition where the face is reddened by a rash, not through alcohol. |
Gary Weatherhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 4:12 am: |
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Hello All
Thanks for the response. I know you don't have a moustache Marie. I was 'only codding dear old boss'.
Tommy, sounds like you are describing street people whose faces are subject to sun, heat, cold
wind and all the other elements as well as alcohol and often cirrhocis of the liver. Combine
this with malnutrition and other illnesses and you are looking at a seriously unhealthy person.
Street life and drugs can have the same result.
Best Regards
Gary |
Tommy Simpson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 10:46 am: |
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Gary
was trying to describe a dermatological condition to which i couldn't give a proper spelling, can't even enlighten you now with the correct spelling but it goes something like this cyrrissis.
Didn't know Jack the Ripper suffered from wind.
Maybe that's why he could be seen flying kites on Clapham common on Sunday afternoons. |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 195
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 2:22 pm: |
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Hi Tommy and Gary
Jack the Ripper killed and made hardly a sound. If he'd tried doing it with wind, it would probably have backfired on him.
Of course, the Phantom Raspberry Blower of Old London Town is a different story.
Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Detective Sergeant
Username: Caz
Post Number: 113
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 3:44 am: |
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Ah, that's it - embarrassment.
Saucy Jack quacked and went all red in the face.
Now I'd better duck. 
Please excuse me - I'm off to Aylesbury tomorrow and have duck on the brain. Have a great weekend all.
Love,
Caz |
L.K. Cook
Police Constable
Username: Xinda
Post Number: 7
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 8:45 pm: |
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Psoriasis, is the correct spelling for the skin condition that you speak of.
Xinda
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 6:44 am: |
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Sunburn? What are the options?
Sailor - could have come back from a long voyage - mixture of wind and sun.
Rural worker - ruddy complexions are not unknown givn exposure to the elements.
Dirt!!
Skin complaint??
Complexion?
Foreigner with a swarthy skin? Half-caste male?
I am sure there are more options? Much depends on what she saw, by what light and how she interpreted what she saw.
Phil |
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 454
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:07 pm: |
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I have to agree with Phil, there are an endless number of options for the "Sun burnt" appearance.
Mikey |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1178
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 3:16 pm: |
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Hi all
Psoriasis, eczema, and rosacea are all skin conditions that could explain a blotchy or ruddy face. On the other hand, he could have had a dark, weatherbeaten appearance from a life working outside (e.g., a farmworker) or aboard ship.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Lu
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 5:35 am: |
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Hi all,
I'm still rather new to all of this but just a thought about the "sunburn" side of things...
If the man in question were indeed "half-caste" as suggested by Phil, would he be likely to have fair hair? My baby brother in-law has a Jamaican father and a white mother who has blonde hair, and he ended up with ginger hair (everyone always calls him Crunchie), so I find it hard to believe a half-caste male would have a fair moustache.
Incidentally, as much as I hate to sound stupid perhaps someone could explain what Rose Bierman meant when she said in her statement: "He did not seem somehow to unfasten the catch as if he had been accustomed to do so before".
Was she implying that the man in question had been at the house before, or that in all likelihood he hadn't. It's caused me some degree of confusion. 
Thanks.
Lu} |
ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 5:57 am: |
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It kind of seems strange that almost the most likely explananiton hasn't been touched on.
When I read that he had a sunburnt face I immediately thought perhaps he had been on holiday to somewhere with better weather and had just returned.
I didn't think about all the sorts of diseases he might have had or how his occupation may have affected his face.
Is there any suspect who had just arrived from some where like continental Europe where the weather is better? |
Louise
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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I like the idea that an actor would try to look a bit ethnic with some dark red makeup ...
as second rate actors love to do on their off time. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1946
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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On another thread recently - I think it was the 'Men Dressed as Women' thread - I did highlight the interesting case of two men arrested by the London police in 1888, both were dressed as women and one of them had applied red make-up to his/her face to give the impression that he/she had been murdered. They could give no explanation for their behaviour - apart from that it was 'a bit of fun' - and they certainly were not actors but in fact were 'poultry dealers'.
This could perhaps be an explanation for this. |
allerteuerste
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 9:18 am: |
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fair hair? sunburnt? looks a lot like hutchinson to me. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3641
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 12:13 pm: |
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allerteuerste,
How do you know what Hutchinson looked like?
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Matfelon
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 3:42 am: |
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??? looks a lot like hutchinson to me ???
allerteuerste,
are you talking about this guy? let me tell you that he's NOT the hutchinson, that we're looking for.
 |
kathryn finkelman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 11:07 pm: |
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I know this is all about Jack the Ripper. I am looking for a man called Black Bob who was incarerated in Brixton Prison in the 5o's. Anybody know how I can located him without a surname? |
kathryn finkelman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 11:07 pm: |
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I know this is all about Jack the Ripper. I am looking for a man called Black Bob who was incarerated in Brixton Prison in the 5o's. Anybody know how I can located him without a surname? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2614
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
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Go to Google, Kathryn, type this in search box and they will help you:
www.eco-action.org/efau/prisoners.html |
Neil K. MacMillan
Inspector
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 154
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 10:08 am: |
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Hi All:
I live in upstate New York.I'm also very fair skinned. It is not impossible to be sunburned in March. To be honest, I can get sunburned just by thinking about it. If sunburned is the only criteria,I guess I'm a suspect
Mentioning the half-caste theory, in several states of the American south it was illegal to interracially marry. Obviously when it comes to love and sex such laws are almost impossible to enforce and I have read several accounts of the off-spring particularly grand children and great grand children being fair.So while a half-caste might have been shunned for racially motivated reasons, they might well be able to pass as Caucasian and have fair skin dependent on parentage. Kindest regards, Neil |
Stephen Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
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Young, with facial skin problems and hanging around Mile End in 1888? Sounds like it might be a certain Mr.Thomas Cutbush to me. See the Sun articles where he himself mentions his being in Mile End during the period of the murders. |
WiT
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 2:28 pm: |
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Hello :.)
I assume, if Ada Wilson, a grown up woman from London who knows the szene of street people there, remarks "sunburnt face", she means unusually sunburnt-coloured, to discriminate this robber from any similar man thereabout.
In London-March it is surely not usual, and a British who made a holiday in p.e.Egypt in winter - he is pale again until he reaches his capital city, some of You forget that they had to take a ship or train etc and couldn't be back in 5 days. They need weeks in 1888, and come home as-pale-as-usual.
The London women also knew the faces, whether dirty or redish from jobbing in the factories - it was their normal surrounding,
The same is it with the colours of drunken sailors, sailors, "stoned" and alcohol addicts.
The same is with races in London, they had all the "colours" in daily life around them, and would have told, which nation's type he looked like.
In the other witnesses textes from EastEnd we hear this.
If they couldn't have an university degree - sure is, that they had all knowledge about things to look at with their own eyes!
The illnesses which make a skin looking really fresh sunburnt are two: the M.Addison - but this colour is more blueish
- and the HEPATITIS. This is the most impressing "sunburnt" aspect I ever saw.
He stabbed her two times in the throat - the "Ripper" seems to have preferred to stab in the opposite, the lower belly: the "wife"-parts with more "interest": full of symbolical hate. This man stabbed in her throat to stop a crying - he did not cut the throat in the manner of murderers: they tell she was crying loud enough that her neighbours awaked and came to rescue her.
He ran away then, they nearly catched him but he came out - I think, he was really there to get money - knocking at the door - urging his entrance - we never hear such a mode of behaviour from the "Ripper" who killed poor women on streets.
She toldd, she is working as a seamstress - not a "seamstress"
- please: were there in London 1887-88 only the prostitutes "seamstresses" - and nobody was really sewing, in the great ugly industrial factories? Who sewed for the great cotton-textile production of London - huh?
I'm sure, that this man was not the serial murder, and I cannot believe, that such peoples need a shy "training time" before.
The idea, to knock at a door for robbing a person is strange, and the use of a knife in this case - surely anybody had a daily life knife with him - seems not to have been for "vivisection"-lusts, but for threat: "Give money, give it quick - otherwise..." - and only her loud crying for help made him stab her: that she should be silent again.
- The other stabber stabbed up to 39 times in a poor human being while alife - not the throat at first which would kill anybody quickest
- that is a total other type.
If his colour was from Hepatitis, he now began to weaken and couldn't fight or do a job further for bread - they had no social welfare
- he, if a single in London without a family, needed for money, for everything. He run away, logically, and tried perhaps another way to get some food or money and died soon.
Another strange thing - the age of Ada Wilson - if the local police tells 39 years old, could this differ so much, even if she were a prostitute from the streets since 14, that it fits to a person with the same name of 19 (*1868/9)? People, if beginning "another life" like it to change their names.
However - let them all rest in peace.
mfG WiT } |
WiT
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 8:32 pm: |
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PS
While thinking about this "sunburnt face" I found two possibilities: as for the HEPATITIS idea, there is a man who died directly after zhe Whitchapel "canonical 5" in Nov 1888: the possible deputy of a loging house:
______________________________
-1888^Nov 1, Timothy Donovan (Zg*1859) who died of Cirrhosis of the liver, Phthisis and exhaustion at London Hospital. This Irish-man, aged 29 of Russell Court, St.George's in the East might have been in 1888 the deputy of common lodging house 30 Dorset Street, Spitalfileds, known as Crossingham's.
_______________
There is a second Timothy Donovan, nearly of the same age - he dies later by justice, he was an agressive man and killed once his wife:
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1904^# Timothy Donovan, (Pf?*1858?) was indicted for murdering his wife, Mary, in Stepney. This Timothy Donovan is almost certainly the same one, who through 1887-88 appeared repeatedly in Thames Magistrate Court on charges of assualt, but when aged 30, might have been in 1888 the deputy of common lodging house 30 Dorset Street, Spitalfields, known as Crossingham's.
______________
remember, I don't think in this case the robber who stabbed in reflex because this woman cried for help is a "Whitechapel murder suspect", only for the reason, that he takes a knife and hurts a neck - no!
- because: the JtR seems to be a profi-killer and lets no possibility to cry. This reminds me more to the classical Persian Assassins "modus agendi" - but here it seems really to have been a more weak type of robber, thinking a woman in the night in her room should fear him enough to give him her little money.
The other "sunburnt face" idea crossed my way by reading Sir Conan Doyle's "The Sign of Four" written in 1890 much nearer to all these cases than we today, in his story the great murderer is a convict who had to serve at first in India and then in Andamanes, in such case they burnt their faces so deeply that it resists.
It would be correct, too, if a witness decribes this phenomena as "sunburnt face". Nevertheless this needs not to be a hint, that this man would have done more than robbers use to try. He acted a bit silly, huh? - knocking at the door - and then storming in with the resultat that all the house awakes and the neighbours come out to help - so he must run away - and nearly not escapes and all have seen him then...
Should we assume a long-times-convict would act so silly when coming home to London?
He would have been living between "tigers" (men) and real tigers in this time, and would have learnt to steal quick, if he needs something. Why should he spend time to see, which weak enough woman is living as single and alone, that he can go in when the house wents to sleep - and there is not the danger that a lover or husband opens the door and instead giving a money kills him?
A real widow and seamstress earned so low fee in that times, and even one who prostituted herself in this age did it for a dime, for the price of a portion tea, or fish and chips - in such a house he could not find so much money to risk his life for it.
I prefer the idea, that this was a very ill robber and hungry, perhaps he spied her out through the windows - and he had no experience in being a "bad man".
Some people assumed this crime to be an exercise for a later mass-murderer, as if such people go to school and learn to become as crazy, huh?
Such a poor woman in her own bed-room in a house full of people seems to be not the fitting object for such "trainings" - I assume such people make their "trainings" on animals, beginning with a hen or cat.
The JtR did his crime in complete darkness - but this widow was just preparing to go to bed and had surely a lamp or last burning candle. Maybe just this gave him the info and the idea to knock here.
mfG WiT |
