| Author |
Message |
    
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 7:20 pm: |       |
I have tracked down the residents who were occupying 13 Millers Court in the 1891 census. Interestingly, the head of household is another Kelly! Thomas Kelly and his wife is Irish but Im having real trouble reading her first name - any help gratefully recieved!!
Im attaching the original image below
Chris S
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David O'Flaherty
Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 50
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 7:26 pm: | |
Can anyone provide an enlargement of the entry?
Good job, Chris.
Dave
edit: Ann, maybe? |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 56
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 7:29 pm: | |
Hi david
Here are the names larger
Chris S
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David O'Flaherty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 51
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 7:34 pm: | |
Chris,
I plump for Anne or a drawing of an alligator poking its head from the waves  |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 7:36 pm: | |
Let's hope it's not the reptile!!!!
Looking at it now it looks more like Ann
Many thanks David
Chris |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 58
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 7:43 pm: | |
So that folks can see this entry in context here is image of whole page from the census
CS
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Caroline Anne Morris
Sergeant
Username: Caz
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 4:25 am: | |
Yep, I think it's Ann, comparing it with Aberdeen (8th 'where born' entry).
Love,
Caz |
Christian Jaud
Police Constable
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 7:01 am: | |
Hi,
sorry I don't get it:
Does that mean all 6 people (from Thomas Kelly down to Charles Clark(?)) lived in this single room No. 13????
Christian
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Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 59
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 7:19 am: | |
Hi Christian
I must admit that crossed my mind too! I'm sure I read that Kelly's room was about 12 feet square which doesnt leave much room for 3 households!!!
To me the most likely assumption is that there had in the three years since the murders been some internal rearrangement at the back of No 27 to allow this number of people to live at No 13. If you look carefully at the well known picture of Kelly on the bed, you can make out thatthe wall behind her (the internal wall onto the back of No 27) appears to be made of some kind of wooden boarding. In fact in some of the contrast enhancements I have done on the pic I'm sure I can see the mouldings of what looks like a blocked up doorway. So McCarthy (who was still at No 27 in the 1891 census) may well have given over more of the ground floor at the back of 27 for tenants.
This is only guesswork but it seems the most likely explanation to me
Chris S
caroline- I see what you mean in the comparison with Aberdeen - Im sure the wife's name is Ann Kelly.
CS |
Christian Jaud
Police Constable
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 7:39 am: | |
Hi Chris,
thanks for the answer. Well, even with an extended No.13 it's still VERY crowded.
I also could imagine that a joined room Miller's 13 + Dorset 26 (!) would be more likely called Dorset 26 than Miller's 13.
But that's all splitting hairs.
I hope a "Kelly" living in there in 1891 doesn't open another can of conspiracy theories ;-)
regards
Christian
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Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 60
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 9:31 am: | |
Hi Christian
To point out what I meant about a panelled wall and door I have outlined the sections in the traditional Kelly photo.
Regards
Chris
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Jim DiPalma
Sergeant
Username: Jimd
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 10:31 am: | |
Hi All,
Chris, I had read somewhere that the "partition" in Kelly's room was only an old door used to seperate her room from a larger parlor at the back of number 26 Dorset, and that there was also a third room on the same floor. So, it's possible the old door was still there in 1891, seperating the ground floor of number 26 into three rooms, one per household.
I believe number 27 was the building next door, from which McCarthy ran his chandler's shop. Somewhere in my collection of Ripper-related images I have a picture of the front of #27. I'll try to find it.
Regarding the entry for Kelly's wife, is the 1891 census online? If so, perhaps it's worth checking just to see how the transcriber interpeted the entry. Personally though, I agree with Caz, comparing the entry with the "A" and "n" in Aberdeen, it sure looks like "Ann" to me.
Best to all,
Jim |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 61
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 11:08 am: | |
Hi Jim
The 1891 census is partly online but the London entries have not yet been transcribed and indexed. I only had access to the original images from which I took the section that I posted
I will be interested to see what the transcriber makes of it!
regards
chris
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Candy Morgan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 4:09 pm: | |
Hello! I hope I'm not being too bold to post here, there's a lot of talent and learned persons on these boards, but from "People of the Abyss" by Jack London we learn of families of 6, 7, or 8 sharing rooms that were just about the same size as Ms. Kelly's. And also 'boarding' out the floor. So it is possible that yes, 6 people were living in that little room, without any remodeling.
I'm not sure of the book, but I recall also the story of a female American reporter who interviewed the woman living in Ms. Kelly's room in 1898 or thereabouts, and saying that the same bloodstained wallpaper was still on the walls.
Journalistic licence or not?
I will look up the reference - I believe it is from either the A to Z or the "Complete History" by Sugden.
And wonderful to finally talk with you all, after all the time I've spent lurking! |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 75
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 6:41 pm: | |
Hi Candy
Welcome aboard. You made a very valid point about the number of people sharing a single room.
The reporter you are trying to remember is Kathleen Blake Watkins, who wrote under the name 'Kit'. I believe it was February 1892 that she visited Millers Court for the first time and saw the still bloodstained walls. The occupants name was Lottie.
I remember reading somewhere that on Daniel Farsons television programe in the fifties ('Farsons guide to the British' or something like that.), he interviewed someone who's mother occupied 13 Millers Court some years after Mary Kellys murder, and there was a bloodstained hand print on one of the walls and every time it was painted over it still showed through.
I better stop now I think I am in the 'Twilight Zone'.
All the best
Rob |
Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 7:03 pm: | |
Hi all
Very interested in the above picture which highlights MJK. The partician behind her seems to indecate a door panel. We know that behind this panel was a stair case leading upwards.
The picture also give's greater clarity of the bed and matrice. I'm interested in any further details about the room as I am currently trying to create a 3D model of the murder scene.
The partician seems to be made of flimsy wooden panels or doors. Any further info about the room most appriciated.
Jeff Leahy |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 801
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 3:37 pm: | |
As a comparison to the original entry on this thread I have done a full listing for my own purposes for the inhabitants of Miller's Court both for 1881 and 1891.
Millers Court 1881
No 6
Edward Tagg (Head) aged 36 born Clerkenwell Glass Blower
Sarah A (Wife) aged 36 born Dublin
Cicilia (daughter) aged 16 born Camberwell
Thomas (son) aged 15 born Blackfriars
Frederick Smith (Head) aged 41 born Clerkenwell Goldbeater
Ellen (wife) aged 38 born Clerkenwell Laundress
No 5
Elizabeth James (head) aged 36 born Trent Needlewoman
Alfred B Knight (other) aged 3 months born Spitalfields
Cornelius Hoahs (Head) aged 23 born Spitalfields Hawker
Agnes (wife) aged 21 born Spitalfields
No 4
Eliza Carlsin (head) aged 40 born Dublin widowed
Kate (daughter) aged 12 born Spitalfields
Charles James (son) aged 10 months born Spitalfields
Lawrence McDonald (head) aged 22 born Bethnal Green Labourer in Gas Factory
Sarah (wife) aged 27 born Kings Cross
No 3
Barney Lipman (head) aged 21 born Middlesex Fish porter
Sophia Palmer (other) aged 27 born Cambridge
Thomas Carey (other) age 27 born Bromley Labourer
Anne Shay (other) aged 20 born India
Nelly Shay (other) aged 17 born India Bootbonder
No 2
Alfred Smith (head) aged 44 born Bethnal Green Butcher
Elizabeth (wife) aged 39 born Hounslow
Mary Ann (daughter) aged 11 born Mile End
William Whitbread (other) aged 17 born Middlesex Hawker
Emma Blard (other) aged 17 born Middlesex
Alfred Whitehead (other) aged 16 born Southampton No occupation
No 1
Robert Brown (head) aged 21 born Chobham Hawker
Louisa Wood (other) aged 20 born Blackfriars
Charles Green (head) aged 34 born Stepney General Labourer
Mary (wife) aged 29 born Shoreditch
Miller’s Court 1891
No 2
Solomon Shremeldy (Head) aged 25 born London City Costermonger
Emily Weiss (Boarder) aged 24 born Finsbury Charwoman
Lilian Reardon (Head) aged 37 born St John’s Westminster
Charles J Reardon (Son) aged 10 born Pimlico
Patrick Coulan (Head) aged 39 born Ireland Shoemaker
Alice (Wife) aged 29 born Chelsea
Bernard (Son) aged 8 born Blackfriars
Alfred (Son) aged 4 born Blackfriars
Michael (Son) aged 1 week born Shoreditch
No 3
Joseph Wadham (Head) aged 61 born Bethnal Green Dock Labourer
Mary A (Wife) aged 58 born Bethnal Green
John (Son) aged 16 born Bethnal Green
No 5
John Payne (Head) aged 42 born Bishopsgate Porter
Jane E (Wife) aged 38 born Shoreditch
John (Son) aged 4 born Shoreditch
George Soulbery aged 36 born Islington Gas Stoker
Elibeth (sic) (Wife) aged 31 born Aberdeen
George (Son) aged 14 born Haggerston
Frederick (Son) aged 8 born Kingsland
Henry Hooker (Head) aged 42 born Shoreditch Stick Dresser
Clara E (Wife) aged 35 born Lambeth Match Box Maker
William F (Son) aged 16 born Shoreditch Van Boy
Eliza Wilson (Visitor) aged 40 born Lambeth Fancy Trimmer
No 6
Thomas North (Head) aged 34 born Pimlico Brick Maker
Sarah (Wife) aged 26 born Penge Charwoman
Katherine Durand (Visitor) aged 29 born Westminster Charwoman
No 7
Elizabeth Norman (Head) aged 34 born London Needlewoman
Matilda Merriton (Head) aged 46 born St George’s East
No 8
Mary A Jeffrey (Head) aged 53 born Bandon, Cork Charwoman
Edward (Son) aged 23 born Whitechapel Carman
No 11
Mary A Griffin (Head) aged 19 born Stepney Rope Maker’s Assistant
No 12
William Harrison aged 65 born Lambeth Wire Worker
Mary A (Wife) aged 65 born Cornwall
Edward Childs (Head) aged 35 born Islington Hawker
Jane (Wife) aged 32 born Islington
No 13
Thomas Kelly (Head) aged 35 born Spitalfields Waterside Labourer
Ann (Wife) aged 34 born Ireland
Elizabeth Harper (Head) aged 39 born Wapping Needlewoman
James (Brother) aged 42 born Finsbury Firewood Bundle Maker
Mary A Clark (Head) aged 49 born Lancashire Laundress
Charles (Son) aged 13 born Hornsey
While I was doing this listing, two things came to light which might be of interest:
I was looking for Mary Ann Cox, wondering if she was still in the same area and am pretty sure I have found her - living in 1891 at 9 Little Paternoster Row. the listing for this residence is as follows:
1891 census
9 Little Paternoster Row
Frederick Young aged 21born Manchester - Brassworker
Annie Young (Wife) aged 19 born Berkshire - Confectioner
Lilian Howard (Boarder) aged 30 born Ireland - Laundress
George H Kelly aged 23 born Marylebone - Army Corporal
Minnie Kelly (Wife) aged 23 born Holloway
William Cox aged 47 born St George's east - Hawker
Mary Ann Cox (Wife) aged 40 born London
Harry A Calcott aged 31 born Bethnal Green - Lamp Cleaner
Clara A Calcott (Wife) aged 31 born Westminster
Interesting that this include a Kelly who is a soldier - sounds familiar:-)
The last thing that may be of peripheral interest is a veritable tribe of Kelly's with a Limerick connection via the mother, also called Mary Kelly. These were living in Swan Court, Mile End:
Kelly in Mile End 1891
2 Swan Court, Mile End Old Town
Edward Kelly (Head) aged 25 born Whitechapel Brass Dresser
Ann E (Wife) aged 22 born Limehouse
Edward (Son) aged 3 born Limehouse
Mary (Daughter) aged 1 born Limehouse
6 Swan Court
William Kelly (Head) aged 28 born Whitechapel Scavenger
Emma J (Wife) aged 29 born Whitechapel
Edward (Son) aged 8 born Limehouse
William (Son) aged 4 born Mile End
Mary (Daughter) aged 2 born Mile End
Unnamed (Daughter) aged 7 days born Mile End
Mary Kelly (Mother) aged 48 Widow born Limerick, Ireland
All the best
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1684
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 4:22 pm: | |
Chris, thanks so much for posting that info.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 87
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 4:31 pm: | |
Robert et.al.
Just stumbled onto this thread..Yes.. I'd go with Ann too!!(For what it's worth!)
Cheers
Suzi |
