| Author |
Message |
    
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3005
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 5:45 pm: | 
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I’ve spent my merry Christmas studying ‘Crime and Insanity’ by WC Sullivan, a medical director at Broadmoor, published in London in 1924, where the author does provide many case studies based on his long experiences at Broadmoor.
The book is a gigantic apple-cart which I reckon will consign much of the theorising on this site concerning the thinking and behaviour of the killer to a suitable wasteland, however is it in the age of the killer that I feel the book has a major impact on our present day thinking.
For WC Sullivan does catalogue the criminal activity of the youths in his care at Broadmoor, and it shows that we may well have to accept the fact that the Whitechapel Murderer could have been as young as 17, when not 14.
If Robert hasn’t put brandy in his tea for Christmas I am hoping he might post one of the cases.
It involves mutilation of the nature we discuss. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5435
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 6:14 pm: |
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No brandy in tea. Quite a lot of cake in me.
Robert |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 708
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 6:20 pm: |
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Hi AP,
How about 16? Check out my article in the DE 2005 Ripperologist.
I think Kurten and Segee claimed they were each about 9 when they started.
Best wishes,
Stan |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3006
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 6:34 pm: |
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Thanks Stan
much appreciated.
I'm trying to narrow the gap down to cases that took place in that time period; and I'm still reading the volume.
It is of great interest though isn't it, that the case above of Obs.48 involves a young man whose father has negleted the family, and a great uncle who tops himself?
My thanks to Robert for eating cake rather than having brandy in his tea. |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 841
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 5:55 am: |
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In that period many children were in full time employment from the age of eight and even younger. By the age of twelve you would have been expected to work. By twelve or thirteen many were sexually active. So I see no problem at all with a teenage Ripper.
"The sun machine is coming down, and we're gonna have a party."
Visit my website - http://www.alansharp.34sp.com/weblog/
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3478
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 7:28 am: |
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Blimey AP
The (AS female aged 25 single )is a poor creature isnt she.......Blame it all on no mensturation till 18 I say! !.....when that happens you start to look at haystacks!!!!!!
Seriously, though these are great passages here...keep posting Robert and AP
Suzi x |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3007
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 8:21 am: |
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Thanks Suzi & Alan
Yes, it is interesting stuff isn’t it?
I’ve dug the 14 year-old boy out now and will send it to Robert for posting - if he can put down his mince pie and brandy pudding for a while!
Although the boy is not a killer of the nature we seek here, I think he was growing up to be one, so Sullivan’s comments are very enlightening.
What strikes me in many of the case studies I’m looking at here from the LVP and early 1900’s is that there appears to be a large degree of external influence on the young killer’s behaviour, in particular from press reports of previous - or even later - murders.
This is something I have always maintained would have been the case for the Whitechapel Murderer, that he would have been highly influenced by press reports concerning the murder of women - and more particularly prostitutes - either in late 1887 or early 1888; and he may well have chosen his victim type, weapon and method of attack from such reports.
That is something I will do very soon. Find the crime and find the mind. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5436
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 8:47 am: |
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Am looking forward to bubble and squeak tonight.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3481
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 11:19 am: |
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A P !!!!!!!!!!Yummy!!!!!!!
He He!!! will read this tomorrow (after cooking!)am........promise!
Suzi x |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5437
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 11:53 am: |
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AP, I believe Suzi thinks you're having bubble and squeak.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3483
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Robert.........Suzi thinks???????
3 Days of cooking..........
Have forgotten who I am!
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5439
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 5:40 pm: |
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Silence, Hanney!
You will go to the kitchen and prepare more sausage rolls.
Lose no time, Hanney!
Quelch |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1285
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 9:25 pm: |
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A.P.
Thanks for spending your time reading this Christmas. This is very interesting material.. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3487
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 10:03 am: |
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Quelch....Er MR Quelch....Sir!!!!!
Out of sausage rolls...(Oooooooooh eh!)
Hanney Minor |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5442
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 12:52 pm: |
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You utterly foolish and insensate boy! How dare you consume all the sausage rolls?
Take fifty lines, Hanney!
Quelch |
Andrew Spallek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 2:31 pm: |
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The young lad in the first case thought nothing of going out in the street and playing games with his mates immediately after his muder-mutilation. Why then is it so difficult to accept the possibility that Montague Druitt could be playing cricket several hours after murdering Anne Chapman?
Andy S. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3013
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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But Andy, did he play a good game of cricket, or a bad one?
Did his form alter in this game? |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 956
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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Hi all.
I'm not going to go through the whole 'could he have been a teenager' thing again. I've said my bit and others have said theirs and ne'er the twain shall meet.
Fascinating though I find these entries, all the cases above are fairly obvious in the descriptions and actions of the criminals - the first case even typifying the classic scenario of the killer remaining close to the scene.
I don't think that mentally any of these cases match our man. I'm not a psychologist, I know, but I'm not a dum-dum either. I find it all very unlikely indeed.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Andrew Spallek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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AP --
I don't recall how he fared in that particular game -- I think it was rather poorly. I can check. I do know that his performance all through 1888 was quite a bit below his norm.
Though, I suspect I can't win this argument. If I say he played poorly that day, someone will say that it doesn't prove anything because he was having a poor year at cricket all around. On the other hand, if I say he played well that day someone will say that this "proves" that nothing was amiss.
Andy S.
(Message edited by aspallek on December 27, 2005) |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3014
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
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Phil
I really think you should get a bit more upbeat about things.
Without a great deal of difficulty I find a young chap who likes to attend slaughter houses ‘cos he likes the blood and guts, string cats up by the neck and hack them to pieces, read reports of bloody murder in The Times and then goes out and slit’s the throat of a woman and then mutilates her ‘privates’…
and you say ‘Nah, I aint buying that. He must have worn a dress suit and cuffs.’
Err? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2750
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 6:46 pm: |
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But extremely helpful to me Ap.I think the exploration of some of these case histories is long overdue ,particularly of those who later committed murders such as the Kensington Park murder -its absolutely crucial to expanding our information about the numbers and types of acts that we now know usually precede murder/serial murder in particular and especially in the period before and after 1888 in London.We almost need a book of case histories of such acts and any subsequent acts -as reference material.
I for one ,find this work really invaluable .
Natalie |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 959
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 5:30 am: |
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Hi AP
You're talking complete and utter rubbish like you always do and I'm leaving the boards in protest (is that what you wanted?  )
I didn't mean he couldn't be the killer because he may fit a lot of the expected criteria - that would be silly, and you of all people know I believe he was a poor unknown local. What I meant was in the above cases all the protagonists have very obvious traits which would make them stand out and - it appears - led to their very quick capture.
Because JTR was never caught in spite of investigations going overboard then I think we are looking for a bird of a different hue.
I also have a degree of faith in a few of the ostensible witness sightings and as the lower limit of them appears to be early 20s in an area where height and build would have shaved a few years OFF the actual age then I find the prospect of a 14 to 17 year old being mistaken for someone generally 10 years older very unlikely. I'm happy to scan in and post some of the images I have of late Victorian boy criminals of that age to show you what I mean (or anyone else should they want).
I have an early Victorian one though I will post here. Both these boys were about 19.
Hee hee hee.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3015
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 6:40 am: |
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Many thanks, Natalie, for your kind comments; and I agree with you entirely, that this type of background material is essential to a fuller understanding of the age and crimes of the Whitechapel Murderer.
Like you, I find the Kensington Park Murder to be oddly compelling when looking at the earlier Whitechapel Murders.
Like there is something nibbling on the baited hook but it just won’t bite… yet!
Phil
There is, I think, a large number of people who have studied this case for many years now who are slowly moving away from the concept of a mature adult killer with a clearly developed ‘style’ -that marks him out as an ‘organised’ or ‘disorganised’ killer - to perhaps a more mature concept of a very young man who hasn’t grown up enough to develop a ‘style’ yet and hence his crimes hover between ‘organised’ and ‘disorganised’; leaving us with the impression that we are dealing with someone who is essentially undeveloped, immature and almost childlike. |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3381
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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it depends what we mean by young.
doesn't it?
i mean - what we think of as young or old depends on how old we are ourselves etc etc, subjective!
Lets face it it could have been anyone - (accept - no i won't say it lol!!)
"Yo, don't believe the hype"
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Dustin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
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This brings back memories, of an article I read almost 15 years ago. It compared modern, juvenille delinquency, as it pretained to a gang, to that, of turn-of-the-century London youth. The position stated by the writer, was that juvenille crime of that earlier period, just might have been more ruthless in nature, than its modern day contempories. Based on the degree of poverty most were experiencing at the time. The case studies presentered to substantiate his theory, were real eye-openers. Despite the fact, I still feel Jack was a seasoned adult, it would not surprise me in the least to learn he was a juvenille.
Dustin |
Belindafromhenmans
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 7:33 am: |
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Philip is obviously correct . This killer is no child. He has just gone down in the records as being the most horrendous of the last century but one!
This thread, no disrespect to my friends, is absurd.
Can I give my opinion. It seems to me that people at times take one slight clue about, say, a letter author, or suchlike, eg 'the cat's meat man', develop some really wild idea and try to make it run all the way, instead of putting it into the context of the case sensibly.
The fact is Eastenders wrote alot of prank letters . Uneducated minds write in a messy fashion which is sorry to see.
That is really all there is to it- and it's sad to see experts milking a really rather barmy new idea like a cow that won't give!
I mean no disrespect by this observation. |
