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Archive through June 16, 2005Jennifer D. Pegg50 6-16-05  5:07 pm
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 432
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lars, you should be grateful that Dawson Radish wants you to be the chosen one who see things just like he does.

How do you rate?
Mags
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Jamie Pick
Unregistered guest
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 7:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I love how people just wonder off topic on these boards, anyway, lets get back on topic.
The question I would ask Jack is...hhmmm, "one or two sugars"?. HAHA.
Not really, but I'd be curious as to why?
Jack was certainly not mad by all means the evidence shows that.}
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey

Post Number: 426
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 11:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jamie,

With all due respect, but, Jack was certainly not mad by all means the evidence shows that

Pardon?? What on Earth makes you say that?!

Please do show me the evidence that proves that Jack was not mad. And then I promise I will go away.

Very respectfully,

Lyn

(I do keep my promises, by the way)
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey

Post Number: 427
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Post script...

I DO very much keep my promises, as English people do, but that doesn't mean to say that I will be gone from the Casebook, in total totallity - been here since time began, and here I will be until my coffin is carried from my tiny apartment (when my ashes will be scattered - and you'd better all see to, it that they are!) - from Germany (one last smoke) through the East coast of America (Love you all!) to Pompey (and, Suz, you're responsible for this!) The Fratton End, and maybe the few ashes that are left, the bar at the Fawcett Inn . Just to say, you all, who have known me for the years that Casebook has been in production, know where to find me. I'll be there. Aways have been, always will be. But, I remain true to my word - if Jamie can come up with evidence that Jack was not in fact mad, I will downsize and lurk for the rest of my days. Promise!

You know where to find me.


Lyn


"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz

Post Number: 1872
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But if Jack was mad, he wouldn't have been responsible for his actions and could have escaped the hangman.

I don't believe too many serial killers have benefited from the "He knows not what he does" defence.

Love,

Caz
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 4573
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 5:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Caz, could you explain to me the following argument which I sometimes see advanced on the Boards? I don't know whether or not you yourself believe it, but I'll run it past you anyway. It goes something like this :

If a killer makes sure that he is unobserved before, during and after a murder, and if he takes steps to avoid capture, then he's sane. A true madman, on the other hand, will not know that what he is doing is wrong, and will happily walk off carrying the murder weapon in his hand, clothes all bloody, as if nothing untoward had happened.

I don't see how this follows at all. Imagine a man who believes that the human race is being taken over by aliens from outer space, who disguise themselves in human bodies (like in the Bodysnatchers). Such a man might think he was quite justified in killing anyone he thought was an alien, but he would still not want to be captured either by other aliens or by the remaining genuine humans who would never believe his story.

I read somewhere recently - cannot now remember where - that in the Victorian period there were fears for the safety of staff at asylums like Broadmoor. The reason was, the lunatics knew quite well that if they killed a warder or nurse or doctor, nothing would happen to them. They were lunatics, and couldn't swing.

I would have thought that a man could be as mad as a hatter and still act with a certain degree of intelligence. And as certain religious and political sects have shown, once an initial faulty premise is swallowed, a man can make everything else he experiences fit into his crazy world-view with a logical rigour and attention to detail that the rest of us might envy.

Robert
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Jamie Pick
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Lindsey Millar,

I've read everything on this website and have seen many documentries on Jack the ripper. I also have unstanding on the BTK case and many other serial killers.
The fact of the matter is if Jack was Mentally ill I think Jack would have been caught long ago due to the difference between the classes of people and behaviour.
If we look at the witness statement on the Annie Chapman murder he states the man she was with asked if he could come in for sex (Will you). This is by no means a behaviour of the mentally ill.
It shows manners first of all (evidence of good up bringing) by asking and Control of the mind.
I know your wondering how it could mean control of the mind and I'll tell you one thing.
If Annie rejected Jack and said 'NO' he would of gone ballistic and possibly attack Annie where she stood which was risky.
We already saw what would happen if Jack didn't kill first off when he was disturbed with stride, so he had to kill again 15 mins later to be satisfied.
Jack knew that it was a possibility he would be rejected if he asked chapman and therefore no kill for jacky boy.
If Chapman had said no Jack would of had to just walk off (control) being as the attack would of been in daylight, which the real murder was.
I know Control is something the mentally ill dont have...
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2669
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Love the post Lyn.
God I knew I'd be blamed for something..unlike the Juwes!! He he!!!!

Jamie

being mentally unstable doesnt necessarily mean that you'll stumble bloodied and confused through the streets following your latest massecre,you're just as likely to have planned the thing meticulously and hide up to continue at another time...look at The Yorkshire Ripper,Neilson etc etc

Suzi

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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko

Post Number: 659
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 5:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert,

"Such a man might think he was quite justified in killing anyone he thought was an alien, but he would still not want to be captured either by other aliens or by the remaining genuine humans who would never believe his story."

The behaviour such a man would display might seem normal at the surface, because he would try to avoid capture like any sane man would. However, below the surface his perception of the world clearly wouldn't have been normal. It would have been distorted. If this man was finally captured, I think that, depending on the severity of his mental illness, sooner or later it would become clear that he was in fact mentally ill.

If this man's mental illness wasn't severe, he might be able to conceal it from his captors for some time, but in the end, I think they'd know. If they were dealing with a guy like Richard Trenton Chase, I think they'd almost immediately know.

This is my opinion based on what I've (mostly) read about schizophrenia, which of course hasn't made me an expert, mind you - far from it, I'd even say.

All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."

- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)

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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 4575
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 5:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, Frank, he would be mentally ill - only a nutter believes that the world's being taken over by aliens, etc. I was just trying to argue against this "either/or" approach that sometimes seems to be advocated on the Boards - "Either he was mad, and then he wouldn't have done anything to shield himself from capture, because he wouldn't have known that what he did was wrong ; or he was a calculating person, and perfectly sane."

Robert
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3614
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 5:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mr Jamie Pick,

No offense, but you do need to read up a bit on both criminal psychology and on other cases in general.

The quantity of serial killers that that can be labeled as "sane" and psychopathic (in contrast to insane and psychotic) are indeed in a clear majority, but your beliefs on these matters are unfortunately based on misconceptions and errors.

It is a complete (and unfortunately wide-spread) myth that so called insane killers like those who suffers from paranoid schizofrenia, can't be in control or appear perfectly normal on occasion.
Because they certainly can.
And we have several cases were such individuals have managed to elude the modern police for long periods of time and commit serial murders. One of the most well-known are Hadden Clark, but also Jeffrey Dahmer is to some degree such an example, as Richard Henry Chase. Hadden Clark was even shrewd and manipulating, but STILL a paranoid schizofrenic.

The add to it a Victorian police force with little, if any, experience of serial killing and with practically no forensic means at their disposal.
THEN add to it, the fact that the killer went for the most vulnerable and desperate group of all -- prostitutes, who had very little possibility to select among their clients because they were desperate for money for drink and lodging. It really doesn't take that much interaction or persuasion, and certainly not cunning.
Several cases have shown that they can manage to blend in perfectly and even manage not too complicated conversations.

A serial killer can perfectly well be insane, suffering from a mental disorder, WITHOUT sticking out too much from the crowd when needed.
This is a point that has been addressed time and time again on these Boards, and one wonders how many times it will take to repeat it until some people finally manage to throw those old misconceptions -- based on prejudice, myths and ignorance about criminal insane (so called "disorganized") behaviour, indicating that they must be raving lunatics running around with foam from their mounth -- overboard.
It is getting tedious, to say the least.

All the best

(Message edited by Glenna on June 20, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko

Post Number: 660
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 5:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi again Robert,

"I would have thought that a man could be as mad as a hatter and still act with a certain degree of intelligence."

If this man would be suffering from schizophrenia, I agree that he could still act with a certain degree of intelligence, because basically it's not his intelligence that is affected, it's his perception that is distorted. So, within the boundaries of his intelligence and depending on the severity of the illness, such a person acts on his or her perception.

If I'm not mistaken, it's not that the personality of such persons that is split, it's their thoughts that are fragmented, which causes them not to be able to focus very well. The worse the case, the less they can concentrate, the less they can use their intelligence. So, in case this man was suffering from (a severe case of) schizophrenia, I'm not sure if he actually would be able to think straight for too long.

Or at least, this is what I've understood.

All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."

- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)

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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko

Post Number: 661
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 5:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oops Robert, I see I posted my last post before I could read your last one.

As you say, there's a lot between the sane & cunning and the raving mad.

Cheers,
Frank


"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."

- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)

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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3616
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 6:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"So, in case this man was suffering from (a severe case of) schizophrenia, I'm not sure if he actually would be able to think straight for too long."

Sure, Frank, but someone suffering from a "severe" form of schizofrenia, is clearly not what we're looking at here.
A killer can still be insane and have a fragmented perception of reality and still appear sane on a superficial level. No need for very serious schizofrenics.

All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko

Post Number: 663
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 6:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Glenn,

There's clearly some misunderstanding to be cleared up. When Robert wrote: "I would have thought that a man could be as mad as a hatter and still act with a certain degree of intelligence.", I didn't take this man to be Jack, but just a man in general.

I don't think the Ripper suffered from a severe case of paranoid schizophrenia, if he was schizophrenic. I don't think he would have been able to pull it of like he did. I'd thought you knew where I stood on this, seeing that I've given my views on this several times, but I guess you must have missed them posts.

Cheers,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."

- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)

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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3617
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 7:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Frank,

No, I do know, and is why I was a bit puzzled by your post.
Because I feel it is not relevant to talk about those kind of severely ill individuals at all in this context; I feel it pretty much takes the focus from the real important points of the insanity argument and leads to too many misunderstandings.
I just wanted to point that out.

All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz

Post Number: 1875
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 4:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert,

...the lunatics knew quite well that if they killed a warder or nurse or doctor, nothing would happen to them. They were lunatics, and couldn't swing.

But could these individuals have been wrongly diagnosed as lunatics? Mental illness is still misunderstood today, and surely mistakes must have been made in Victorian times. The good old days of lunacy saw young unmarried mums carted off to an asylum! If I had been in those shoes, I might have felt like killing a wardress.

And as certain religious and political sects have shown, once an initial faulty premise is swallowed, a man can make everything else he experiences fit into his crazy world-view with a logical rigour and attention to detail that the rest of us might envy.

Absolutely - as we see daily on these boards when faith takes over from the lack of evidence.

But how many such people are actually mentally ill?

My argument is not that a mentally ill Jack wouldn't be able to stop himself attacking if the circumstances were too risky. My worry is that a mentally ill Jack would not have been responsible for his actions.

When I look at cases like Peter Sutcliffe, Fred West and Harold Shipman, who were all eventually caught through carelessness, and hated having their power taken away after being in total control of their actions, not giving a toss that society condemns murderers, I always see Jack, grinning because he never put a foot wrong.

I can certainly see Jack, wrongly caged in an asylum, thinking he may as well rip up his carers while he's there.

Maybe he was mentally ill and didn't deserve the condemnation he's received over the years.

But I'll need some convincing.

Love,

Caz
X
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko

Post Number: 664
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 5:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Glenn,

"No, I do know, and is why I was a bit puzzled by your post."

I guess that, due to the posts by Lyn and Robert, I just got a little bit entangled in the subject. I agree we shouldn't make things more difficult than necessary. Thanks for pulling me out.

Nice to see once again that we share views on the Ripper's possible sanity.

All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."

- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)

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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 4577
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 5:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Caz

I'm certainly not trying to make excuses for Jack. He may have been sane, he may have been partially sane, or insane...

Even if he was insane, he may have been to blame for letting his mind get into that state in the first place. People like Hitler and Lenin deserve a big punishment on this score, whether sane or not.

It's true that he didn't stand there over Kate's body, waiting for Watkins to come round and take him to the clink. But if we go to the opposite end of the spectrum, he doesn't seem to have done much planning either. I can think of better places to commit a murder than a yard behind a crowded slum tenement, at sunup, with a bloke taking a leak on the other side of the fence.

Robert
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roryherbert
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 4:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anyone know where i could get a copy of Clarence Haddon's book, "My Uncle King George the Fifth". Regards, Rory

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