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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3874
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:31 am: | 
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The uncanny absence of noise during the Mitre Square murder has always struck me. Perhaps if it was windy the Square's echo effect wouldn't have come into play?
Monty, have you been to Mitrte Square with the wind? 
Robert |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 473
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 8:29 am: |
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Thank you, Monty for trying it. Another thing that might affect the wetness of the apron piece would be the quality of the drainage on the sidewalk. For instance if the sidewalk slopes slightly in the direction of the street most of the water would run into the street and the apron piece might just get a little damp. Or if the drainage were such that big puddles would form, then the apron piece could become soaked. Pardon me if this comes off as gender arrogance but I believe that we women are more knowledgeable of fabrics. Different fibers, weaves, etc. can affect the weight of the cloth greatly. (I have sewn in the past.) I need to do some research to be sure but I know that lots of our modern synthetics were not invented in 1888. The apron was probably cotton or very lightweight wool. We need to try to approximate the size and shape as closely as possible too. |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 106
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:03 am: |
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Woah!
I don't think it is likely the apron was blown in, y'know. It's just a theory that hasn't been looked at and can't be completely dismissed. Unlikely but not impossible, that's all.
Monty - afraid I will have to disagree with your views on the weather conditions recently and in September 1888. If you read my posting above, I mention there was the occasional gust elsewhere, Wentworth Street was still, and then going into Goulston Street it was blowing a howling gale - on that night the wind was average everywhere except Goulston Street. This could have just been it blew up a bit at that time, but it is more likely the geography of Goulston Street syphoned the wind down it.
Do the experiment with dried blood? Oh God - how far is this going to go? Shall we try for the rest of the faecal matter as well? 
Let me make it clear - I do actually agree with all of you. I think the apron was dropped where it was found, but the wind that night in the street there made me think we need to look at other possibilities too.
I personally don't think we can be certain what route he took from Mitre Square but that's a different story altogether!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3877
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:11 am: |
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It's noticeable that the apron was the only thing that the police thought significant. In other words, had the wind been blowing rubbish into the doorway, i.e. scraps of paper etc, surely the police would have gathered these up? A man reaching into his pocket for chalk might inadvertently pull out other things too. But the apron seems to have been the only thing found. So maybe there wasn't much wind.
Robert |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 108
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:21 am: |
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That's true Robert but...
Sweet wrappers or half a blood-soaked apron. Which would you think would be a clue?
A good point about the apron possibly being dropped as he took chalk from his pocket, but I am pretty sure that's not how it was - though I will concede that has more likelihood than my wind theory.
'Hutchinson's Wind Theory' - a new branch of geophysics!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 474
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:44 am: |
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The Jack the Ripper Companion reproduces a London Times article which refers to the cloth as coarse. (pg 217). Alfred Long states that one portion of it was wet. It could have blown along till it came to a puddle, one end got soaked and that stopped it. But he states farther on that one corner of it was wet with blood. (pg 260). He states on page 261 that the piece was actually inside the building and admits that he might not have seen it earlier because of that. I cant find any other info in the Companion. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3879
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 9:47 am: |
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Hi Philip
what I meant was, if the police had found a scrap of paper in the doorway - say a scrap of envelope as at the Chapman murder - they might have kept it in case it had been deliberately discarded, or more likely inadvertently dropped, by Jack. So maybe there were no scraps of paper in the doorway. So maybe there was little wind.
Goulston St was apparently full of all kinds of debria in those days - cloths, paper - so if it was very windy it's odd that either
1. The bloody apron was the only thing blown into the doorway
or
2. The police disregarded everything else.
My own view is that Jack threw the apron there but didn't write the graffito.
Robert |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 113
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:01 am: |
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Thanks for info Di.
Robert - Yep. I agree. Small point, though - it's likely the apron would have been the heaviest thing blown into the doorway if it ever happened. Scraps of paper would probably have been picked up by gusts and seperated and blown right to the back of the lobby whereas the apron would have been too bulky to have been swept up in the interior, out of the direct blast, and away from the door?
I know this is now getting silly, but again it just goes to show that there are so many ways of looking at it.
And Goulston Street it still full of crap today!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1500
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:12 am: |
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Rob,
"Monty, have you been to Mitrte Square with the wind?
Yes but Im now on medication for it !
Whilst the square cuts out the noise from Aldgate ect Ive always found it to generate its own noises. Most of the high sides of the square have disappeared but sound still reverbarates around.
Phil,
Sorry, I thought you went out when the winds were high. Though you state it was "blowing a gale" in Goulston st....was there one blowing that night in September?
"And Goulston Street it still full of crap today!"
You know Ive mentioned this many times before as I have noticed how untidy the Street is nowadays. Its for this reason, though there are others, that I felt Long didnt note the apron. Not that he didnt see it just that he didnt register it because he simply felt it was crap.
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 115
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:17 am: |
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That would make sense, Monty.
In ref to my 'blowing a gale' phrase - it was! But it was just in Goulston Street. I was using it to illustrate that there was a strong wind centred on Goulston Street, though it was only normal wind elsewhere.
And nothing to do with your own wind.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1503
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
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Oh...and PS.
If you think Im galivanting down Goulston Street chasing a cacky piece of material with a bloody fan or hairdryer then think again.
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 476
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
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Here's a website that talks about Victorian aprons. http://www.antiques.about.com/library/weekly/aa112502.htm
The bib top was pinned in place.
The skirt only apron didn't come along until the 1920's.
The apron hung down the full length of the skirt. |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 120
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
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HA HA HAAAAA!
There is no smiley icon to match how loudly I just laughed.
I've never seen you, Monty, but it is a fantastic image! Great big long extension cable running behind you, apron blowing off course - a bit like the school sports day egg-rolling race!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 478
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
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London Times -- January 14
Madman Arrested in Whitechapel
A man was arrested and taken to Leman Street Police Station today. Witnesses said he was behaving oddly and they called police thinking he might become a danger to himself or others. The man was observed running down the street chasing a dirty rag with a hairdryer and muttering about Jack the Ripper. |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 122
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 1:09 pm: |
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Yes oh yes oh yes!!!
I think we need a Ripper meeting. Call in the media, get us all on London Tonight and the Evening Standard, all at the junction of Goulston Street and Wentworth Street with bloody rags and hairdryers.
I have collected the necessary equipment :
Jane - what do you mean, inferring I add to my rank by unnecessary postings?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3880
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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Well, I think you lot should have a series of duels - wind against wind, hairdryer against hairdryer.
Winner can challenge me and my helicopter.
But I warn you, you'll be blown away.
Robert |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 479
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
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Actually a hairdryer would throw the whole thing off. We have to use the natural wind that blew the natural way on that unnatural night in 1888 for it to be valid.
George, or Philip or whoever you are -- that looks like strawberry juice to me, which is just fine. You don't need to go all out for accuracy on this one. |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 125
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
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And not Monty's unnatural wind in Mitre Square?
Actually, Di, that's one of my tour props. It gets a big laugh but I'm not telling you why. Red paint.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 202
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:56 pm: |
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In a serious moment...
A while back on another thread I said that the British and especially the Londoners, should "bum rush" the PRO and compare notes,if possible. Bum rush means to collectively go to the PRO [ in this case ] as a group.
Thats what some of you guys ought to do..because if I lived in London,I'd make people go with me to check out the Wentworth...and go on Phil's tours. You guys need to hook up and do something like that. The two year wait between U.S. and U.K. conventions is tooooooo long. Just a thought.
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Belinda Pearce
Sergeant
Username: Belinda
Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 8:04 pm: |
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The apron could have been carried there by a rat,cat,mouse, dog ect |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 406
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 8:48 pm: |
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Belinda,
Yes, the apron part could have been moved from Mitre Square to Goulston Street by any number of agents, including multiple human agents. We don't know and any speculation on how it got from one place to another is just that -- speculation. Nothing wrong with that and it can be fun, but unfortunately we will never know what happened.
Me, I'd like to know what happened to the apron part. That question just might be answerable.
Don.
"There were only three times I'd have sold my mother into slavery for a cell phone . . . and two of those would have been crank calls."
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 128
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 3:50 am: |
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Now here's a thing -
I can't remember where I saw it, but in the last 48 hours someone has posted something on Casebook that they found out the skirt type of apron did not exist until the 1920s - before then it was a pinny-type thing that went up the whole body, tied round the waist and pinned up the chest.
It was half of Eddowes apron, right?
Now...
If this is how an apron would have been in 1888, was it cut right up the middle, or was it cut across where the waistline was?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 129
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 3:51 am: |
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Oops - I've just seen. Di posted it above on this very thread. D'Oh!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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dlmaugiw
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:22 am: |
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What is then advantage of droping off the apron. The Ripper loved trophies(So they say) then why not keep the apron too. Maybe the Ripper had used it to clean his hands and just discarded when he was done with it or maybe he had someone in mind at that addressed to incriminate. He may have thought the police would had investigate everyone in the premise. |
Isoar
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:31 pm: |
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It turns out many of my ancestors owned businesses on White Chapel and the surrounding neighborhood. Their names were Marks, Lyons and Abrahams who were mostly in jewelry and pawn brokers. I know they must have been questioned regarding these crimes as most Jews were. There has been a family mystery floating around for generations and I hope to learn through research what some of the question have a little light shed on them. |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 131
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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Dave : Hurry up and get registered! Good points.
Isoar : Interesting family history! There are people on these boards who can not only tell you if they are known, but even the colour of their underwear! I myself recently made contact with a direct descendant of the man who found Annie Chapman's body - through eBay! - so there is a lot out there. Just to let you down gently, though, 'family mystery' will almost certainly have nothing to do with the Ripper - people make this sort of link all the time. I hope I'm wrong, though!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 408
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 8:35 pm: |
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Was it really 2 months ago we were posting on this? How time flies!
I didn't really know where to put this piece of info, and this thread seemed as relevant as any.
On my Ripper walk tonight I found that in the last few days brand new shutters have gone up on the Goulston Street doorway.
"So what?" you say. Well, sadly they are further forward than the old ones so now, after closing, you can see no part whatsoever of the internal element of the wall on which the graffito was written. Though only a couple of inches, you always used to be able to. Ah well.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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