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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1119
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 4:43 pm: |       |
Hi,
It intriques me that Eddowes was so intoxicated that she was arrested and taken to the cells at 8pm on the 29th sept.
For a woman of mature years, who had spend most of the month hop picking, along with a i would hazard a guess a few drinking nights, the question arises 'How much alcohol did she consume?.
For her to be in a incapable state at 8pm, and causing such a commotion that she was arrested , she must have been in a bad way.
My main concern is ' Why did the station Sergeant release a woman of forty plus[ which was considered elderly in 1888] on to the streets to make her way way home on streets that were dangerous to a woman of that attire?.
I Appreciate that it was considered a good natured act by the police , so that the culprit could escape a morning fine by the court, however i believe it was policy that no woman in obvious danger was released from custody, and was escorted to a safe residence during that period.
I will always maintain that Eddowes was used as a guinea pig that night and was followed by a officer in plain clothes, who lost her around the many entrances at Mitre square[ note Bleinkinsops comments]
Regards Richard. |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 106
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 11:29 pm: | |
Hi Richard,
The metropolitan police held drunks as soon as they sobered. The City Police on the other hand held drunks until the morning, and they were charged before the magistrate. I suppose it was poor Kate's luck that she ended up at Bishopsgate.
Major Smith's orders were that every man and woman seen together after midnight within the precincts of the City were to be accounted for.
Cullen When London Walked In Terror
Nina
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1026
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 11:39 am: | |
Hi Richard and Nina
That Kate Eddowes was roaring drunk was apparently the case. However, the amount of alcohol that she may have consumed that night might be debatable. For example, if she was hungry, a little alcohol might have made her very drunk, or else she might have had a health condition that made a small amount of alcohol affect her quite rapidly.
I am thinking here about the case of Edgar Allan Poe (1809-1849), who died here in Baltimore in October 1849, either on a drunken bender, or else after he was mugged or because he was ill, or both. Legend has it, courtesy of enemies such as Rufus Griswold, that the writer was a habitual drunkard, but in reality it seems that Poe became falling down drunk after a drink or two. Some people think the reason for this may have been that Poe had diabetes or a brain tumor that made him rapidly drunk when he took a drink.
Just some thoughts for you to consider when discussing Kate's state that night and the sequence of events.
I think a good case could be made, as has been discussed, that John Kelly and Kate Eddowes were drinkers, but that is not to say there could have been reasons why she was roaring drunk before she was picked up the City Police, other than that she had consumed a considerable amount of alcohol, which she might in fact not have done. Another school of thought might have it that it was the Ripper who paid for those drinks, and who later had a rendezvous with her in Mitre Square. Bob Hinton in his book makes the point that when exiting Bishopsgate police station, Kate went in the opposite direction to what might have been anticipated if she was going to rejoin Kelly, as if she did have a pre-arranged assignation with her murderer.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 107
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 12:59 pm: | |
Another school of thought might have it that it was the Ripper who paid for those drinks, and who later had a rendezvous with her in Mitre Square. from C.G. above
Chris..Perhaps this may also explain why the sobering Eddowes was interested in the time,asking Hutt about it twice within a half hour. Kate tells Hutt that she expects a row upon arriving home,but Kelly apparently wasn't that worried about her absence,figuring she was at her daughter's..
It does appear to be unusual for someone to get plastered to the point of sidewalk -hugging drunk...and then be confident in being capable to engage in a future appointment or even remember that they had a rendezvous later on that evening.
However,you are right about some folks,like diabetics, who only require a few shots of liquor to appear as if they were tossing a 30 pack down...These people,being accustomed to this,usually aren't as drunk as they appear to be,and since their blood alcohol level isn't in the red zone, get back to normal faster than one would anticipate.
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 522
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 1:16 pm: | |
Hi, Howard and Chris
Doesn't Catherine Eddowes's mention of the row at home tell us exactly what and whom her appointment was with? John Kelly, four o'clock at Cooney's.
It might be just me, but a common experience with drinkers is sobering up and thinking "God, what did I do?"
Dave
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1456
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 1:29 pm: | |
Well, I don't know, I'm a 'drinker' so I should be able to contribute to this valid debate.
When I get falling down drunk and someone throws me in a room for a few hours to sober up, when they release me I don't think 'oh my god what have I done?', I think 'where the hell is that nice man who was buying me all those nice drinks' and like a guided missile I'm heading back to that very place.
I think I tend to agree with Chris, it sounds like she was being entertained and then wanted some more.
I must get diabetic, could save me a powerful lot of money.
Good human thread. |
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 109
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 1:40 pm: | |
"...John Kelly, four o'clock at Cooney's."- Dave,above.
You could be right,Dave. However,she was released three hours prior to 4 A.M.
Didn't get a chance,what with Halloween and all,to check your program out on Sunday...Hope it was a success for you.
How...who has on one or two occasions, straddled the sidewalk in order to keep from fallin' off the earth, himself ! |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 523
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:05 pm: | |
Hi, A.P.
Ha--well I hope your search doesn't lead you to Pere Lechaise and Jim Morrison  To each his own, but I think it's fortunate that after spending nearly five hours in the clink, Kate just happens to get released half an hour before her appointment with the mystery man.
What we have here is George Hutt corroborating John Kelly's testimony that Kate was supposed to return at four. That's an appointment we have evidence for. I don't think there is any for a meeting with the mystery man.
Why couldn't old Kate have simply been sharing a bottle with a fellow lodger happy to see her back from Kent? It's as plausible as this some guy buying her drinks in a tavern (where nobody ever saw her). Also, is it correct that the drinking establishments were closed by 1 am? So if you believe Kate's in search of another drink, maybe you don't think bottle-sharing is out of the question, either?
Howard, sorry I wasn't clear--she was supposed to be back at 4 pm. She's nine hours late--I'd expect a hiding, too. Kelly knew she was locked up (he said so to Wilkinson when he got his bed), so his story that Kate was sleeping over at her daughter's was a lie he told The Star.
Cheers,
Dave
PS Thanks for the good wishes, buddy
(Message edited by oberlin on November 03, 2004)
(Message edited by oberlin on November 03, 2004) |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1121
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:06 pm: | |
Hi,
I still think it is mighty strange that the police released eddowes at 1am that morning without having a constable escorting her home, to release a vunerable woman on the streets on the undertaking that she said she was okay, is just plain irresponsible.
I Take the point that the stride episode had not reached the station by her time of release, however to release a woman that had been arrested for drunkeness just five hours earlier, at that hour of the morning, when she could encounter possible danger is sheer incompetence.
It seemed that whilst she was inside the station she had the intention of returning to find Kelly, yet once outside she turned the opposite way, one possible expalnation was someone was outside the building that enticed her in that direction?.
Regards Richard. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1029
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:27 pm: | |
Hi Richard
You wrote: "to release a woman that had been arrested for drunkeness just five hours earlier, at that hour of the morning, when she could encounter possible danger is sheer incompetence."
However, Richard, if the police realised or sensed that she was a streetwalker (even if, as some contend, she was a part timer), why wouldn't they release her, even at that hour? These women were not called "unfortunates" for nothing. They were "unfortunates" because few if any cared about them, including the police.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 524
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:36 pm: | |
Good point, Chris--Hutt seems more interested in delivering a lecture. The little scene between Hutt and Eddowes is one of my favorite areas. . .the cop and "criminal" almost sound like a couple of co-workers.
Cheers,
Dave |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 5:15 pm: | |
Hi everyone; Like Chris, I wonder about Eddowes' interest in the time, as the only reason a drunk asks this is if it pertains to obtaining more alcohol.
After her afternoon drinking spree, she would have had a powerful need for more alcohol.
Let's not make light of the addictive nature of these women's drinking problems by comparing them to our own recreational, self-inflicted hangovers.
If Eddowes did drink with someone that afternoon, and they had mentioned attending the Duke St.Club
later that evening, she would have been able to recall that fact as soon as she sobered up.
It would be her best shot at an after hours flask, perhaps the man she was seen frisking.
I have a neighbour, a little woman too, and she goes from zero to wasted in about 3 shots of rum with a water chaser. She is a chronic alcoholic and spends all day on the phone borrowing enough money for a drink or two.
Joan |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 109
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 10:46 pm: | |
I wonder how the brights disease that Kate had effected any drinking she did. I know that it would be detrimental to her health.
Nina |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3369
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 8:34 am: | |
Hi Joan
Good to see you posting again.
Robert |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1033
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 10:58 am: | |
BRIGHT'S DISEASE
The following might be helpful in discussing Kate's physical condition and how well she could tolerate alcohol, or if indeed she should drink alcohol at all, which this seems to indicate she should not have been doing (as we might suspect!). "Bright's disease" is a variant form of nephritis.
This comes from
http://www.pathlights.com/nr_encyclopedia/06urin02.htm
If this is accurate, it indicates Kate should not have been out in the middle of the night in Aldgate drinking alcohol, and that instead she should be at home tucked up in bed, after having a warm bath! 
SYMPTOMS—Fever, chills, urgency and frequency of urination, loss of appetite, nausea, and vomiting. The urine is cloudy from pus, and often bloody. Pain may be intense and sudden in the lower back, just above the waist, and running down the groin. An excessive amount of blood protein in the urine is a marked symptom of Bright's disease. It is usually accompanied by hypertension and edema, which is retention of water in the tissues.
CAUSES—Bright's disease involves a chronic inflammation of the kidneys. . ., but it is unique in the following respect: The kidneys cannot properly excrete salt and other wastes. The result is that salt and various wastes are stored by the blood in tissues throughout the body. This produces tissue swellings, edema, and high blood pressure. Blood and protein are also in the urine in excessive amounts.
Gradually the blood itself becomes contaminated with these waste produces, and uremia (uremic poisoning) is the result.
Consuming alcohol, tea, coffee, and spices are excellent ways to ruin your kidneys. . .
TREATMENT—
• See your physician.
• Take a high enema and a daily hot half-hour tub bath. Give 2-3 cups of pleurisy tea or sage tea while in the tub. Finish with a short cold shower or cold towel rub. Do not let [the patient] chill. Wrap [her] up well, put [her] in bed, and give [her] more pleurisy tea or sage tea to encourage perspiration. Fomentations over the lower back and the entire length of the spine will help alleviate pain. Do this also over the stomach, liver, and spleen.
• For other natural remedies which can help control urinary tract infection, see under "Nephritis" and "Cystitis."
(Message edited by chrisg on November 04, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1399
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:00 am: | |
Folks,
AP is the drinker....Im the Diabetic.
Nope, doesnt take much to make me light headed. I keep to my limit of 2 pints a week, usually on a Friday or Saturday. Thing is I know when I have had too much because I become very sleepy. Its a sign with me. Unfortunately different people have different signs when they are high. My daughter is also a diabetic and she gets nauseous and a headache. I get sleepy or very restless, a rush feeling where I have to move with flushes. Not sure if thats the change though !
I dont know if Im contributing here but thats my story any how.
Monty
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
|
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1034
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:05 am: | |
Hi Monty 
It seems we posted at the same time. Thanks for your contribution. How are you doing, mate? Fine, I hope, despite your diabetes and the position of Leicester Football Club.  I hope things are starting to look up by now.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 526
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:09 am: | |
Is there a relationship between stature and tolerance? She was only five foot, not a lot of mass there. |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:23 am: | |
I assumed that Kate would not have realised her illness? Is that correct? i mean from what you say there Chris she would have felt ill?
David,
I was always lead to belive that larger people could better hold there drink. i don't know if it's true or if it's an urban myth!
Jenni
ps the postion of LCFC is neither here nor there!! |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1035
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:24 am: | |
Hi David
You are possibly correct that a shorter person with less body mass will become drunk faster than a taller person with greater body mass, although I have no data to hand at the moment to verify that. I'll keep searching.   
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:37 am: | |
Hi Jennifer
Yes if Kate Eddowes did have Bright's disease (nephritis), and her kidney was discolored, as it apparently was, in the fashion that indicates she suffered from that disease, she would have been sick and would have known it. But then I should think most of these women would have been ill in various degrees. In that day, tuberculosis and bronchitis were two of the most common afflictions of the English poor even if these particular women did not all have those specific diseases. Dr. Phillips reported that Annie Chapman, besides being obese was undernourished (a seeming contradiction there we might think), with chronic diseases of the lungs and brain membranes.
As for Liverpool FC, as I put on another thread, the Everton fans (the supporters of the "other" Merseyside Premier club) have nicknamed our new manager, Benitez, "Rafael Beneath Us" from our lower position in the table. 
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1230
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:45 am: | |
would she have known the diagnosis, how did doctors work back then? |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 620
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
A word on what would be considered "elderly." A woman in her 40's would not be considered elderly in 1888. When we see average life expectancies of the era that seem very low (perhaps in the 50's) that does not mean people routinely dropped dead at that age. The prevalence of infant mortality, rather, had a very stifling effect on average life expectancy. If one managed to survive infancy, he could well hope to live to a ripe old age. That being said, I suppose the harsh conditions of the East End might also have contributed to a shortening of life expectancy.
Andy S.
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 12:38 pm: | |
Hi Jennifer
I have my doubts if Kate would have known the diagnosis of the disease from which she suffered. She might have been treated at the London Hospital, Whitechapel Road, or elsewhere, but still the physicians might not tell her the diagnosis.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1123
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Hi Andrew,
I disagree that a woman in her fortys during that period was not considered elderly. my dear late grandmother deseased for over forty years, remarked to me that women over that age used to dress rather dowdy compared with their younger counterparts, wrapping themselves in thick shawls, far from the modern age when people considerable older try desperately to prelong their youth.
Regards Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3374
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 5:11 pm: | |
Hi all
I think Kate could have kept up the booze OK. The people then seem to have been pretty tough - Smith, for instance.
One thing I find a bit surprising, is that there's no mention of her asking for a drink of water at the station (which I assume they'd have given her, had she asked). Of course, it's possible that she asked, and the police didn't consider it important enough to mention at the inquest.
A raging thirst and a mouth like leather after such Bacchanalias are common experiences.
I stress that I am not speaking from personal knowledge here. 
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1208
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 5:35 pm: | |
Hi Everyone,I do think Joan makes a really important point here.The only thing that really really mattered to Kate was how to get her next drink.And I think it applied to each and everyone of his victims.And Jack for some reason knew that drink mattered more than life itself to his victims and used this to ensnare them.Maybe he was the son of an alcoholic mother who had abandoned him because of drink.
Natalie |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1292
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 7:05 am: | |
Hi Nat,
Assuming Jack himself had an addictive nature (even if it only manifested itself in repeated acts of murder and mutilation), this may have made him instinctively more aware of his victims' weaknesses, in all senses of the word.
If he also demonstrated a penchant for the bottle, or other addictive substances, while in their company, it could have put these women at their ease to have a like-minded soul for company - one who would share and empathise with their own methods of seeking comfort.
Little did they know that the only brand of empathy Jack possessed would have come in a little bottle labelled 'Empathy for cats' ('cat' being an old slang term for 'harlot'). 
Incidentally, I found the following in a facsimile reprint from Gore's Directory 1895, as published in An Everyday History of Liverpool by Scouse Press:
1823 - Died, in the Workhouse, Ellen Tate, aged 110 years, March 6. There also died in the same place, during the winter, Margaret M'Kenzie, 104, and Francis Dixon, 105
Have a great weekend all.
Love,
Caz
X
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1044
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 8:25 am: | |
Hi Caz
What's the significance of your posting that entry from Gore's Liverpool Directory for 1895 of deaths in 1823? Does it have some relevance to the Maybrick Diary? If so, I am missing whatever link at which you might be hinting.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1209
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 9:06 am: | |
Hi Caz and Chris,I was a bit puzzled too by the 1823 entry.However if its true then there must have been a group of amazons living near the Mersey.Maybe it was the fresh air from the Irish sea in those days.I"m off to the fields to paint this weekend.Hope it stays reasonably fine.I think you make good points there Caz.Did he have a grudge against a particular type of woman-or women around the age of his mother who reminded him of her----and if she was a heavy drinker too
had she perhaps left little Jack at a tender age,leaving him with a murderous rage for this mother he lost to drink and prostitution maybe and who he now substituted obsessive hatred for instead of the obsessive love some boy children are said to have for their mothers? Its possible.If this were the case then he maybe he went "searching" for her and maybe they resembled her in some way and he was able to get his revenge finally by substituting them for her.Its a similar theory to the one Stephen cites in the background to the case.I think there just may be something in it.
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1467
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 1:22 pm: | |
I think Caz was just pointing out the benefits of drinking ten pints of rot-gut gin a day.
Them old gin queens clocked up a century no problem as long as they stayed off the streets.
It has always been my opinion that sexually transmitted disease would have played a much greater role in the performance and behaviour of all Jack's victims than alcohol addiction.
And I don't think Jack was killing his mother, I reckon he was killing time. |
Busy Beaver
Detective Sergeant
Username: Busy
Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 5:19 am: | |
Thanks Christopher for providing the link about Bright's disease. I'm doing the family tree at the moment and two ancestors died from bright's disease and they were not drinkers. The link you provided gave me the answer to how they got the disease- from possible lead poisoning, as they were both employed in the paint industry in the 1880's. Thanks.
Busy Beaver  |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 11:28 am: | |
Hi Busy Beaver
Another point about lead poisoning is that in the nineteenth century many people drank water that came from lead cisterns or that coursed through lead pipes. Thus, you might be right that the lead poisoning that led to your ancestors' Bright's disease came from the paint industry where they were employed, but it could have come also from the water they drank.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1297
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
AP was close enough:
I think Caz was just pointing out the benefits of drinking ten pints of rot-gut gin a day. Them old gin queens clocked up a century no problem as long as they stayed off the streets.
I was just pointing out examples of workhouse folk, even as far back as the early 1800s, who were nowhere near clapped out by the time they were forty - these three toughies (two women, one man) weren't even half way through their lives at forty, if one can believe the statistics.
Hi Nat,
I think we can only state with some certainty that Jack had a problem with women, but maybe only with some of 'em. That may have included his mother, but then some men who have a problem with women in general - or prostitutes in particular - look up to their mum, sister or wife as if she were a goddess.
So one of these goddesses could have let Jack down at some point (Peter Sutcliffe's case springs to mind), but maybe he hated the whole bunch. I tell you, females are a whole different sex.
(I think Jack Lemmon said something like that while dressed as one.  )
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on November 06, 2004) |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 116
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 8:26 pm: | |
Hi Jenni,
I was always lead to believe that larger people could better hold there drink. i don't know if it's true or if it's an urban myth!
|
John Dow
Police Constable
Username: Johnmdow
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 10:58 am: | |
Sure if she were retaining "nasty water" in her body tissues then she'd have some amount of bloating. Can this possibly account for the amount of loose and sagging skin visible in the autopsy photos? If so, would the ripper have been somewhat, erm, smelly? |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1240
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 1:33 pm: | |
Hi Nina,
thanks i thought it was probably the case
Jenni |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 296
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 1:38 pm: | |
Andy, Caz, Richard, et al.,
In a way you are all right. Certainly, Andy's observations on the differing ways to measure average age is correct. Within societies with no effective checks on childhood diseases, life expectancy at birth will be much lower than it is today in developed nations. And in the labor-intensive, agrarian societies that existed for much of history, large families were one key to success and thus the average age will be in the low teens and the truly elderly will be but a small fraction of the whole.
However, if you look at adult life expectancy (as I did in 17th Century New England as part of my doctoral research) things are much different. A Malden (Massachusetts Bay Colony) male who lived to 21 in 1675 had as great a life expectancy as did a Malden (Masschusetts) male in 1975. Because of such dangers as childbirth sepsis, the time lag was greater for women, but by age 40 a Malden female in 1675 had an even greater life expectancy than her modern counterpart.
Moreover, and this may appeal to Caz and AP, these New England folks were all walking around with a perpetual "buzz" on. With most water supplies unfit for consumption, everyone consumed ale or (especially) apple cider or perry (pear cider). Based on the study of wills and deeds, a widow would be expected to consume, on average, four barrels of cider a year. And that was big barrels and hard cider.
Finally, age can be measured not only chronologically, but culturally and there I think Richard is right. The evidence is mostly anecdotal, like Richard's observation, but there seems no question that at certain times in certain societies a woman's age (and to a lesser extent a male's) was looked upon as "40 going on death." You simply reached a certain age (one low by our standards) that was considered old -- there was no concept of an extended middle-age.
Don. |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 119
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 2:14 pm: | |
Hi John,
I believe that the sagging and loose skin you referred to in the autopsy photos were due to the fact that she had some organs missing.
Nina |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 120
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 2:23 pm: | |
Hi Don,
"40 going on death."
Glad I wasn't born back then. 
Nina |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 530
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 2:24 pm: | |
Welcome to Casebook, John. I think the sagging and loose belly was from having carried three children, but Nina's observation is interesting too.
Cheers,
Dave |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 121
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 3:04 pm: | |
Hi Dave,
I have given birth to three children and I can assure you there is no sagging or loose belly on me. Of course I'm sure that Kate didn't take very good care of herself.
Hi John,
I don't know where my manners are! 
Nina  |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 531
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 3:11 pm: | |
Hi Nina,
I'm sure you work out
Dave |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 4:06 pm: | |
Hi Nina-you look very good in your picture I must say!I have thought though that that the sagging referred to in Kate was probably due to her having had three children and unlikely to have exercised or anything afterwards.
Hi Caz, I agree over the tendency of some sons to idealise etc but in the case of a child who has been "abandoned" by a mother the tendency is often towards a deep and bitter resentment.If you ever get the chance to read the life of Jean Genet
whose mother abandoned him in 1908 at 7 months of age when she was seventeen and unable to provide for him you will see here a celebrated case of a man who developed an abiding hatred for women that lasted for most of his life he was a thief,a male prostitute and a genius who took the French literary scene by storm when he wrote his poetic novels and plays from his prison cell.He adored
male murderers-"idolised" them in fact-for a good part of his life anyway.Jean Paul Sartre wrote a famous biography of him called "Saint Genet"-that Genet didnt like at all-.The Balcony is one of his plays set in a Parisian Brothel thatis quite brilliantly funny and very subversive indeed.In the latter part of his life he relented a little in his murderous hatred of women when he fell in love with a young Palestinian who had joined the "fedayeen" and met his mother who indeed as you point out about the tendency to "idealise" Genet developed a great love for[of the platonic kind apparently].He writes of her great dignity and beautiful pure use of the Arabic language and a great desire for him to become her sort of "adopted" son.
Anyway I do think The life of Genet gives one an insight into how such hatred can develop as a result of abandonment by a primary carer.
Natalie
|
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 123
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 4:15 pm: | |
Hi Dave,
When ever I get the chance!
Nina |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 124
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
Natalie,
Thank you for the compliment. Makes me want to exercise more.
Nina |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1212
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 4:51 pm: | |
Nina,I swim for exercise and when I do it regularly it has a definite and noticeable effect.
That picture of you hasmade me want to get back to regular swimming!So Many Thanks!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3394
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 5:43 pm: | |
It would be extremely unhealthy for me to go swimming - I can't swim.
Robert |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 126
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 9:03 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
I can't swim either. We can both row behind Natalie though.
Nina |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1214
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 4:33 am: | |
Hi Nina and Robert,sounds good that.Maybe we could all get rowing and I"ll get rid of this underarm flab thats begun to appear whether I weigh 120 lbs or 135 lbs.I"m 5ft 5ins and keep veering between these weights.
Maybe its payback time for my drinking days!Natalie
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3396
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 6:09 am: | |
Hi Natalie
I think the best thing would be for you and Nina to do the rowing, and I'll be the bloke with the megaphone making sure you keep your stroke rate up.
First trip, a row up the Thames to see Druitt's death site (Nina, you'll have to row across the Atlantic first).
Robert |
Lindsey Millar
Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 8:30 pm: | |
Chris,
Sorry to be slow on the uptake here (had to sober up, you understand..) But many thanks (I think) for the enlightening "ginny kidney" info.. from now on Lyn is laying off the brewskis, coffee and tea... And off to take a long hot bath
Will take up swimming first thing in the morning!
Bestest,
Lyn
(Hunting for her bathing suit, and hoping to high heaven that it still fits!) |
Lindsey Millar
Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 43
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 8:41 pm: | |
Hi All,
To get back to Richard's original post.. Why was Kate dismissed, and allowed to leave the police station when it was well known that a murderer of "unfortunates", or even just "women" was on the loose?
I remember when there was a series of rapes in Pompey (where I grew up) the police escorted me to a football match, after dark, for my safety. Mind you, this was in 1976, not 1888.. My question is, did they simply not care enough?
Sad indeed, if they didn't.
Bestest,
Lyn |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 132
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 10:25 pm: | |
Hi Lindsey,
It's hard to believe but it seems they didn't care. Very sad! 
What's even worse is if Richard is correct in the fact that she was being used as a decoy that night without her knowledge.
Nina |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 348
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 10:39 pm: | |
Hi Lindsey,
I don't think it's a matter of not caring as just not having a reason to believe Eddowes was in any danger. Everyone always second guesses every decision the police made (and other people as well, such as the poor guy out to use the toilet twice) now that we know what happened and when, but I don't think that's really fair.
So, what, serial killer is on the loose, lock all the women up and don't let them out? And what if they had kept Eddowes all that night? It's entirely possible Jack just would have gotten someone else that night instead.
Right now there are serial killers known to be operating in major cities across the U.S. and world. They warn the public and general, prostitutes in particular, but they don't lock them all up every night, or refuse to release them from jail when they should be released. Is it that we just don't care now?
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 134
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 11:41 pm: | |
Hi Dan,
Unfortunately as you stated we do have serial killers roaming all over. I for for one would never allow that fact to intrude upon my freedom.
I may have been slightly harsh in stating that the police didn't care. I guess I'm just a little biased when it comes to Kate.
Major Smith's orders were that every man and woman seen together after midnight within the precincts of the City were to be accounted for. Cullen
It seems they did care. Although, if Richard is correct then that would have been a very careless act on the part of the police.
I for one would never second guess some poor guy using the toilet twice, unless he left the lid up.
Nina |
Dustin Gould
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 2:37 am: | |
Hi Richard,
I feel one must take into consideration several, important factors. The first being, that London's police stations, would literally be rammed packed with drunkards on any, given day. Especially on weekends. The period of time in which Eddowes was temporairly incarcerated. Suffice to say, the "drunk tank" might be treated as a "revolving door". In other words, bring them in just long enough to sober them up, and then send them back out in order to make room for others.
I'm inclined to believe it highly improbable, that the police would have sent her out still intoxicated. This would have proved very impractical, and probably would have resulted in her being picked right back up, since the pubs were still open for buisness. By releasing her when they did (after last call), they were at least assured, she could not procure more alcohol via a public house, and thus repeat the process.
All the best,
Dustin Gould |
|
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