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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 9:53 am: |       |
I was doing some research which involved the Union Infirmary in Baker's Row in the 1881 census. This was a sizeable institution - the number of residents (staff and pauper inmates) totalled 698. The medical staff in charge are listed as:
James John HOLT Medical Officer U Male 49 Bromley, Kent, England Surgeon
Perkins Willm. CASE Medical Officer U Male 27 Trowbridge, Wiltshire, England Surgeon
(The U indicates Unmarried)
What interested me is that eight of the female pauper inmates are specifically listed under profession as prostitutes, and a very familiar named headed the list!
Mary KELLY Pauper U Female 23 Whitechapel, Middlesex, England Prostitute
Anne GARDNER Pauper U Female 42 Greenwich, Kent, England Prostitute
Jane WALLACE Pauper U Female 22 St George East, Middlesex, England Prostitute
Jane BROWN Pauper U Female 31 Islington, Middlesex, England Prostitute
Catherine JONES Pauper U Female 17 Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England Prostitute
Sarah WILLIAMS Pauper U Female 23 St George East, Middlesex, England Prostitute
Bridget VERNON Pauper U Female 26 Ireland Prostitute
Adelaide COWLAN Pauper U Female 27 Bradford, York, England Prostitute
The places listed in the second to last column indicate the place of birth
Hope this is of interest
Chris
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 968
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:53 am: | |
Hope this is of interest ??!!!
You having a laugh ??
The name hit me before I even read the post.
Again, and I do seem to be saying this alot, well done Chris.
Monty
Our little group has always been and always will until the end... |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2280
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:54 am: | |
Hi Chris
I wonder whether this Holt was any relation of Dr Holt of Willesden, who played the fool after the Kelly murder.
Robert |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 108
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:56 am: | |
That's from 1881? Mary Kelly was 23 in 1881? That would have made her 30 in 1888, could that have even been the same MK? I thought she was 25 or 26 when she died.
Chris 
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1115
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:46 am: | |
Hi all
Glad it's of interest - Chris M: two things - the age field in the census is one of the least reliable as I have found to my cost and is frequently out by 2 to 3 years comparing one census to another. Secondly as far as I know Kelly's age at the time of death was estimated from the accounts of her acquaintances - in fact if I remember rightly it says on her death certificate she was approximately 25 years of age.
I have tried to backtrack the lady mentioned to 1871 and found have so far found only one of the approximately right age who was living in Westminster who may be of interest.
3 Marlborough Row, Golden Square, Westminster
Head:
John Kelly aged 42 born Limerick, Ireland - Labourer
Wife:
Catherine Kelly aged 36
Children:
James aged 16
Patrick aged 13
Mary aged 11
Ellen aged 6
Catherine aged 3
All children born in London
Anything else I find I'll let you know
Chris
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Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 596
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:54 am: | |
Thanks Chris.A sensational find if its her and it looks like it might well be.
Natalie |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1116
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 12:14 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
I wouldn't get too excited too quickly!
There is lot of work to do yet and none of the above constitutes any kind of identifiable conclusion - at this stage I would rate it as interesting rather than significant
That said, glad it's of interest
Chris
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Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 131
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 1:40 pm: | |
Chris,
Good luck with your research into the Mary Kelly in London. I've believed for sometime that MJK of Millers Court had a stronger connection with London than we knew about, and that her Welsh history was either invented or borrowed from someone she once knew.
The names of the two brothers James and Patrick Kelly on the 1871 census at Westminster, are names that appear many times in Scots Guards records at the PRO, unlike Henry or John.
All the best
Neal
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 777
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 2:38 pm: | |
Hi Chris.
My daughter having time on her hands, and whom is assisting Leanne and myself in our publication, discovered this very same information about a month ago. I passed the information onto Leanne but had yet to post onto the message boards.
I was worried about the age of Kelly but as we know her age of 25 was only an approximation this could very well be her.
It is most certainly worth further research.
Regards
Richard |
Neal Shelden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Neal
Post Number: 132
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 3:00 pm: | |
On familysearch.org, I came across an entry on the 1881 census for a Mary Kelly aged 22, unmarried, general servant unemployed, born Westminster. She was a lodger with a Rachel Barnett of Alfred Cottages, London, RG11 0113/69/38.
She could be the one in 1871 at 3 Marlborough Row, Golden Square, Westminster?
(Message edited by Neal on April 02, 2004) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2285
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 5:34 am: | |
There is a Mary Kelly in the 1871 Welsh census living in Cardiganshire with parents Robert and Catherine and brothers Thomas and Benjamin. At 2 years old she's too young for our Mary, but I thought it was interesting that there was also a 12 year old John Davies living with them, relation stepson.
Robert |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 96
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 8:13 am: | |
Chris,
Dude, where do you come up with all this info, man? Well done.
Paul |
Janice
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:31 pm: | |
We have just discovered my husband's gg uncle George Frederick Doughty was at 78 Leman Street Police Station, Whitechapel London at the time of the 1881 Census. After he married in 1886 he lived at # 50, Rotherchilds Buildings, Spitalfields, Whitechapel. He remained in the Police Force until 1895, when he retired at the age of 36 and took up a new profession as a Stone Mason.
Can one assume correctly, that he would have been involved in some way or other in his roll as a police officer, with the Jack the Ripper case?
Janice
Sydney - Australia |
Edgar Hadley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 6:22 pm: | |
Hi Chris and Neal,
Excellent research from you both as always.
Maybe just accepting Kelly's age as 25 has been holding some of us back in our research.
I wonder if Joe Barnett actually knew Kelly's exact age and after all no member of her family could be traced to verify this figure.
Best regards,
Edgar |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 2:55 pm: | |
As usual, another fascinating find. Great work Chris! |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1117
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 1:43 pm: | |
Hi all
I tend to agree with Neal in that the Welsh connection with Kelly may be misreported, over emphasised or even, in the most extreme scenario, invented. We must remember among the other victims the story that Liz Stride consistently tolf about her husband and children perishing in the Princess Alice disaster. There are circumstances that could explain this - Stride thinking it would play on listeners' sympathies and aid her applications for charitable - indeed there was a fund set up for dependents of the Princess Alice victims but as far as I know there is no evidence for Stride applying to this.
The reports about the life of Kelly prior to 1888 come, of course, principally from Barnett and if we compare his police statement with his inquest testimony there is a small but interesting discrepancy regarding Kelly telling him about her former life. In the police statement Barnett said:
"the deceased told me on one occasion that her father named John Kelly was a foreman of some ironworks in Carmarthen or Carnarvon, that she had a brother named Henry etc...."
In his inqyest testimony howver, he testified:
"Deceased has often told me as to her parents, that she was born in Limerick, that she was 25 years of age, and from there went to Wales when very young. She told me she came to London about 4 years ago. Her father's name was John Kelly, he was a gauger at some iron works in Carnarvonshire etc."
The police statement implies they discussed this only once, which could explain Barnett's confusion over the similar sounding Carmarthen and Carnarvon - presumably Kelly herself was not confused as to whenther she was raised in north or south Wales! In the inquest testimony this has hardened into Carnarvon stated as definite.
Although there is independent support for Kelly's Irish background, the only detailed info about her prior to coming to London comes from barnett's account. If this was the result of one occasion when Kelly discussed her family, then we must legitimately question how accurate both in terms of Kelly's version of events and Barnett's recall of it.
The same applies to Barnett's statement of her age - we cannot take this as strictly accurate for the following reasons:
1) the info came from Kelly herself
2) we do not know how far into their relationship Kelly told him
3) there may be reasons why kelly would not accurately report her age even of she knew it
It has always puzzled me as to why no members of Kelly's family came forward - although one press report said that they had been in contact and were expected to come to the funeral. From the volume of press coverage internationally if the info Kelly gave was accurate her family could not have failed to recognize her.
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1118
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 1:58 pm: | |
Hi janice
Interesting info about your relative but actually he was a stone mason by the 1891 census. Would be interesting if he was still in the force at the time of the murders.
Here are his details from 1881 and 1891:
George Frederick Doughty
Born 1860
1881 Census
Police Street, 78 Leman Street, London
George F Doughty aged 21 born Plumstead, Kent - Constable Metropolitan Police
1891 Census
Rothschild Building, Thrawl Street, Spitalfields
George F Doughty aged 31 born Plumstead, Kent - Stone Mason
Wife:
Elizabeth C Doughty aged 31 born Lowestoft, Suffolk
Child:
Arthur C Doughty aged 1 born Spitalfields
Hope this helps
Chris |
Janice Doughty
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:32 pm: | |
Chris,
I must apologise that I have not thanked you for the information regarding PC George Frederick Doughty. I have only just come across your responce.
Since posting my query back in April I have found out that George Frederick Doughty of 138 H Divison, Whitchapel, Warrant # 65290, was dismissed from the Police Force after nearly 10 years. The reason for his dismissal was:-
"Demanding money with menaces from a man about to enter a Brothel. Deemed unfit for the Police Service." Dated 08.05.1890.
This would have been around the time of the Ripper and would have really got him into strife. We believe that George served his appenticeship as a Stone Mason before he joined the Police Force at 21 years of age. He was born in Plumstead Kent/London in 1859. His parents were Robert Nicholas and Elizabeth Doughty (nee Burcham.) Robert and Elizabeth came from Norfolk. (George Frederick Doughty's wife was also a Burcham and the neice of George's mother).
George grew up in Portsea in Hampshire with his 10 brothers and one sister. His parents had finally settled in Portsea, where his father Robert Nicholas Doughty was the proprietor of The George Pub. Five brothers of George Frederick Doughty immigrated to Australia between 1876 and 1888. As did three Burcham first cousins.
George and his wife Elizabeth had a very sad life, of his 8 children, 6 who were all born in the Rotherchild buildings in Spitalfields died as infants. George and Elizabeth returned to Portsea with one surving twin and their new born son Robert Nicholas Doughty, sadly the baby died at 6 months, one more child was born in Hampshire, Dorothy.
I can also remember reading a book on the Ripper Murders and there was a mention of a Doughty, I am not sure but think it was a Thomas Doughty, he had something to do with the American doctor that was a suspect. Is anything known about this Doughty? Where he came from? Who is was etc?
Once again thank you so much for the information you put together.
Regards,
Janice
Sydney - Australia |
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