| Author |
Message |
    
Nick Cook
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 11:02 am: | 
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Does anyone know what happened with Mary Kelly's room after the murder? Apparantly it was rented out for a while but who would want to stay in a place after a horrible murder like that has taken place. When was it knocked down and why? I wonder if a lot of people tried to break into it if it was boarded up just to spook each other as a dare! Anyone know of such stories? |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 764
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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Nick,
As far as we know, room 13, still was used right up to it being demolished in 1928, you are right who would want to stay in that room,after its history? there again, people in desperate need of accomodation , it would have been a roof over there heads.
Regarding the windows being boarded, that was just a temporary measure after the murder, not long passed , before McCarthy was renting it once more.
Regards Richard. |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 1:21 pm: |
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Hello Nick,
You ask if anyone lived at 13, Millers Court after the murder of Mary Kelly. While researching for our book we happened on the 1891 census. We were surprised to see a Thomas KELLY living there just three years after. If he were a relative of Mary it is very unlikely he would be living in a room where a relative was hacked to bits. This lends weight to the theory that it was someone else lying on that blood soaked bed.
A&S |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 194
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 2:02 pm: |
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A&S,
If, IF, IF . . . good grief, that is quite a leap into the unknown you have just taken. Considering that there is no proof the woman known as "Mary Jane Kelly" actually had that surname and considering how many people actually had that surname (not to mention those who adopted it) in London at the time, your discovery lends no weight whatsoever to the "it wasn't Kelly's body" theory.
Don. |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 3:16 am: |
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Hello Donald,
I only said it lends weight, not definitive proof.
It is not a leap into the unknown, you cannot prove it was or not her real name, or her actually lying on the bed. Like me you have your theories which I will always respect and defend your right too. Obviously you do not have a copy of our book. We reasearched for our book over a 5 year period and went onto areas that no others had done in the past. We only put forward a scenario of what could have happened, we do not 'ram' our theory down any readers throat, sadly many do. And we add the rider at the end that 'we are only spinning a yarn', again a fact that sadly many other writers are not prepared to admit.
A&S |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 195
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 10:54 am: |
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A&S,
No, I haven't had the privilege of reading your book yet, but my argument was not with your overall thesis. You may well be right that it was not the woman known as Mary Jane Kelly who was found dead. My point is just that the particular datum, as presented, adds nothing to your theory. And it is a "leap into the unknown" when you go from a conditional "if" to the declarative "That lends weight." It was that verbal "sleight of hand" that drew my attention and perhaps it was unintentional on your part. That's all.
Don. |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 111
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 1:51 pm: |
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Hello Donald,
I am not going to get into a argument over your interpretation of using the words 'this lends weight'. Obviously mine differs from yours. Also you say 'verbal sleight of hand', this is slightly awry as it would have been my 'written sleight of hand'.
Anyway Don I take it you are USA based, which is why our marvellous language sometimes is misinterpretated between us. We are sending over our book on a regular basis to the USA. When we completed the book we had several ofers from publishers, but in the end wanted to do it our way. We have had several businesses over the years and started Ten Bells Publishing in 1997 to bring our book out. We have since published others. We only had 5000 JTR's printed. I note that on the various auction sites they make £28 each sometimes. If you want a copy we sell them at a special discount to casebook posters.
You can e-mail us at:
Asptenbells@aol.com
Please get in touch you might be pleasantly surprised.
All the very best.
A&S |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 770
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 2:30 pm: |
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Hi,
I would like to plug Andy /Sue's book, it is a excellent read, and it is on the first shelf of my bookcase, which has a vast collection of Ripper publications.
Richard. |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 617
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 2:44 pm: |
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Hi A & S and Richard,
Well I must say that I agree that Richard was right about Millers Ct not being demolished till 1928!...puts a bit more credence onto the not Mary theory I reckon!What about Canadian Kit coming over to the room tho....;what date was that?Mrs Prater with or without Diddles was still living above at the time I think!Book sounds good....might have to add it to my ridiculous collection!!!! details please S and A !!!
Cheers Suzi |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 196
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 2:53 pm: |
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A&S,
Thank you for the information. By the way, it may just be another case of our being separated by a common language, but on this side of the pond at least, verbal is not necessarily a synonym of oral. Indeed, the first definition is simply pertaining to words in any form. I shall look into your tome. The best.
Don. |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 3:30 pm: |
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Nick,
there is a photo of a demolition at spitalfields which is dated 1928. Myself and others believe it to be that of the buildings between Dorset Street and Brushfield Street, follow all of the thread and make your own mind up. Click on the link below and then click on the archive at the topof the page. If the link below doesn't work go to messageboard, victims, Mary Jane Kelly, is this the last known photo etc. towards the bottom of the page. ../4921/9726.html"#C6C6B5"> |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 590
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 5:57 pm: |
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Hello All
I would also like to put in a plug for the Parlour's book. I enjoyed it very much and I am surprised to lean that it had a limited print run.
As for 13 Millers Court after the murder, I know that for a long time it was a money maker of sorts for the inhabitants who charged people to view the 'scene of the crime'.
All The Best
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 591
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 6:02 pm: |
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I am also surprised to note that I can't spell learn. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 9:49 am: |
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Re the use of Miller's Court after the murder. I have looked at the census listing for 1871, 1881 and 1891. In the 1871 and 1881 returns premises for Miller's Court are only listed as 1 to 6. Higher numbers (including 13) first appear in the 1891 census so the changes to McCarthy's premises must have taken place some time after 1881.
I think that after Kelly's murder there must have been some rearrangement of the internal arrangements at McCarthy's, or at least changes in the numbering as in 1891 there are six people making up three different household listed as living at number 13 Miller's Court. Hard to imagine - even in Victorian London- six people from different families in a single 12 foot room!
The listing from 1891 is as follows:
No 13
Thomas Kelly (Head) aged 35 born Spitalfields Waterside Labourer
Ann (Wife) aged 34 born Ireland
Elizabeth Harper (Head) aged 39 born Wapping Needlewoman
James (Brother) aged 42 born Finsbury Firewood Bundle Maker
Mary A Clark (Head) aged 49 born Lancashire Laundress
Charles (Son) aged 13 born Hornsey
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1104
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 9:55 am: |
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To give complete info, here are the residents details for Millers Court for 1871, 1881 and 1891:
Miller's Court
1871 Census
No 6
Isaac Hyams aged 32 - Tailor
Sarah Hyams aged 36 - Tailor
Children:
Ester aged 20 - Cap maker
Anna aged 16 - Tailoress
Son aged 10 (name illegible)
Jacob aged 6
Leah aged 1
Joseph Davis aged 69 - General Dealer
Esther Davis aged 50
Child:
Isaac Davis aged 12 - Cigar Maker
No 5
Morris Browne aged 40 - Glazier
Caoline Browne aged 30
Children:
Rebecca aged 7
Sarah aged 4
Davis aged 6 months
No 4
Abraham Levy aged 23 - Shoemaker
Rachel Levy aged 23
Children:
Samuel aged 3
Lodgers:
Rosenberg Solomon aged 20 - Cigar maker
Davis Solomon aged 23 - Cigar maker
Mark Solomon aged 34 - Cogar maker
No 3
Abraham Shilling Dycke aged 34 - Glazier
Sarah Dycke aged 35
Children:
Isreal aged 10
Woolf aged 1
Jacob aged 1
Daughter aged 5 (name illegible)
Lodger:
Samuels aged 20 - Glazier
No 2
James Bernstein aged 45 - Tailor
Wife aged 26 (name illegible)
Children:
Betsy aged 17 - Hatmaker
Sarah aged 1
Visitor:
Jacob Marks aged 21- Boot finisher
Soloman Black aged 40 - Glazier
Rebecca Black aged 32
Children:
Rachel aged 15
Leah aged 12
Sarah aged 0
Jacob aged 1
No 1
Morris Freedman aged 26 - Boot finisher
Sarah Freedman aged 24
Children:
Rebecca aged 6
Louis aged 2
27 Dorset Street
Sarah Phillip aged 39 - Widow - Washerwoman
Children:
Joanna (?) aged 10 - Coat maker
Betsy aged 16 - Coat maker
Mary aged 14 - Coat maker
Abraham Coplin aged 29 - Finisher
Wife (unnamed) aged 27
Abraham Richardson aged 26 - Finisher
Sarah Richardson aged 23 - Finisher
Children:
Myer aged 2 (Daughter)
Mariam Barnett aged 14 - Manager Chandlers
Myers Kay aged 30 - Boot finisher
Annie Kay aged 26 - Boot finisher
Brother:
Abraham Kay aged 20 - Coat presser
Millers Court 1881
No 6
Edward Tagg (Head) aged 36 born Clerkenwell Glass Blower
Sarah A (Wife) aged 36 born Dublin
Cicilia (daughter) aged 16 born Camberwell
Thomas (son) aged 15 born Blackfriars
Frederick Smith (Head) aged 41 born Clerkenwell Goldbeater
Ellen (wife) aged 38 born Clerkenwell Laundress
No 5
Elizabeth James (head) aged 36 born Trent Needlewoman
Alfred B Knight (other) aged 3 months born Spitalfields
Cornelius Hoahs (Head) aged 23 born Spitalfields Hawker
Agnes (wife) aged 21 born Spitalfields
No 4
Eliza Carlsin (head) aged 40 born Dublin widowed
Kate (daughter) aged 12 born Spitalfields
Charles James (son) aged 10 months born Spitalfields
Lawrence McDonald (head) aged 22 born Bethnal Green Labourer in Gas Factory
Sarah (wife) aged 27 born Kings Cross
No 3
Barney Lipman (head) aged 21 born Middlesex Fish porter
Sophia Palmer (other) aged 27 born Cambridge
Thomas Carey (other) age 27 born Bromley Labourer
Anne Shay (other) aged 20 born India
Nelly Shay (other) aged 17 born India Bootbonder
No 2
Alfred Smith (head) aged 44 born Bethnal Green Butcher
Elizabeth (wife) aged 39 born Hounslow
Mary Ann (daughter) aged 11 born Mile End
William Whitbread (other) aged 17 born Middlesex Hawker
Emma Blard (other) aged 17 born Middlesex
Alfred Whitehead (other) aged 16 born Southampton No occupation
No 1
Robert Brown (head) aged 21 born Chobham Hawker
Louisa Wood (other) aged 20 born Blackfriars
Charles Green (head) aged 34 born Stepney General Labourer
Mary (wife) aged 29 born Shoreditch
Miller’s Court 1891
No 2
Solomon Shremeldy (Head) aged 25 born London City Costermonger
Emily Weiss (Boarder) aged 24 born Finsbury Charwoman
Lilian Reardon (Head) aged 37 born St John’s Westminster
Charles J Reardon (Son) aged 10 born Pimlico
Patrick Coulan (Head) aged 39 born Ireland Shoemaker
Alice (Wife) aged 29 born Chelsea
Bernard (Son) aged 8 born Blackfriars
Alfred (Son) aged 4 born Blackfriars
Michael (Son) aged 1 week born Shoreditch
No 3
Joseph Wadham (Head) aged 61 born Bethnal Green Dock Labourer
Mary A (Wife) aged 58 born Bethnal Green
John (Son) aged 16 born Bethnal Green
No 5
John Payne (Head) aged 42 born Bishopsgate Porter
Jane E (Wife) aged 38 born Shoreditch
John (Son) aged 4 born Shoreditch
George Soulbery aged 36 born Islington Gas Stoker
Elibeth (sic) (Wife) aged 31 born Aberdeen
George (Son) aged 14 born Haggerston
Frederick (Son) aged 8 born Kingsland
Henry Hooker (Head) aged 42 born Shoreditch Stick Dresser
Clara E (Wife) aged 35 born Lambeth Match Box Maker
William F (Son) aged 16 born Shoreditch Van Boy
Eliza Wilson (Visitor) aged 40 born Lambeth Fancy Trimmer
No 6
Thomas North (Head) aged 34 born Pimlico Brick Maker
Sarah (Wife) aged 26 born Penge Charwoman
Katherine Durand (Visitor) aged 29 born Westminster Charwoman
No 7
Elizabeth Norman (Head) aged 34 born London Needlewoman
Matilda Merriton (Head) aged 46 born St George’s East
No 8
Mary A Jeffrey (Head) aged 53 born Bandon, Cork Charwoman
Edward (Son) aged 23 born Whitechapel Carman
No 11
Mary A Griffin (Head) aged 19 born Stepney Rope Maker’s Assistant
No 12
William Harrison aged 65 born Lambeth Wire Worker
Mary A (Wife) aged 65 born Cornwall
Edward Childs (Head) aged 35 born Islington Hawker
Jane (Wife) aged 32 born Islington
No 13
Thomas Kelly (Head) aged 35 born Spitalfields Waterside Labourer
Ann (Wife) aged 34 born Ireland
Elizabeth Harper (Head) aged 39 born Wapping Needlewoman
James (Brother) aged 42 born Finsbury Firewood Bundle Maker
Mary A Clark (Head) aged 49 born Lancashire Laundress
Charles (Son) aged 13 born Hornsey
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maria giordano
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 2:22 pm: |
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A&s-
Three years is a very long time in the history of a place like Whitechapel isn't it? What should we expect to be the turnover rate per year on a crummy little room like that?
Does it really matter whose body was on that bed, or do you think that had to be one particular person? |
Nick Cook
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 7:00 am: |
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Thanks for the information everyone, very interesting and the link to the millers court pics was very interesting too. I didnt know they charged to let people visit the room also but also intersting to know.
Thanks
Nick |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 12:42 am: |
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I've got to agree with Don, that was quite an amazing non sequitur. |
M.Mc.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 7:22 pm: |
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You know what they say, "If we gather our cans at the rivers edge they still won't float. Then if's and's and but's were candy and nuts. Then we'd all have a merry X-Mas."  |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 627
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 3:14 pm: |
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God chaps!!!
Didn't realise it was so close to Christmas!!!!! OOOOOOOOh yes...if you had had the misfortune to be living in Millers ct...in 1888 ..you'd have shown people round and charged them wouldn't you?!.....bit like the tours these days!!!! just a thought!
Suzi
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Mr. Woodhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 7:59 am: |
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About twenty years ago I read a library book (British)about murder sites in London but I can't remember the actual title.In it was a description of a visit to the room in Millers Court presumably taken from another book or from an old newspaper article.This was interesting enough but amazingly the person then living in the room stated that there was some sort of supernatural activity going on involving a weeping picture or crucifix or something.Probably just bad plumbing but a bit spooky nevertheless and one never knows does one as Fats Waller used to say.Please could someone tell me the title of the book and what was actually said about the visit to Mary,s room.Thanks |
