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Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 449
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 10:23 am: |       |
Reading over Radka's "Alternate" thread this morning I was reminded of a conversation I had on Friday night concerning Sociopaths. I had been under the impression that a Sociopath and a Psychopath were the same thing, merely that Sociopath was the more PC version of the term, but a friend challenged my opinion stating that they were quite different problems.
I am no psychology major, so I refused to argue about it, not wanting to look like a ignoramus, but can anyone help me out?
Even Radka, if he can pull himself away from the Alternate thread for long enough . . . enlighten a simpleton, are they the same? Or are they different? And if so, how?
-K
Hello Vinny. It's your Uncle Bingo. Time to pay the cheque. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1385
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 10:46 am: | |
Kris,
In Montys world Psychopaths are mentally/emotionally unstable whilst Sociopaths manipulate, use cunning and rarely hold emotion.
My views again but to me Bundy was a Sociopath. He manipulated his victims (and pursuers) and was organised whilst Sutcliffe was a pyschopath.
That said I believe you can have the two in one. A sort Psychopathic Sociopath.....maybe that would sum Bundy up better.
Basically and bluntly, pyschopaths are unstable and care not a jot whilst Sociopaths are unstable and hide it.
Monty
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1165
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 11:38 am: | |
Hi,
Penguin second edition Psychological Dictionary A.S. Reber (1995)
'psychopath a term with two uses, both falling out of favour. 1. A general label for a person with any severe mental disorder. This usage is now absent from technical writings but still occurs in popular literature. 2. an individual diagnosed with having a > psychopathic personality. Note however, that term has been largely superseded first by > sociopathic personality disorder and more recently by . antisocial personality disorder.
pp618/9
psychopathic personality 'A personality disorder characterised by amorality, a lack of affect and a diminished sense of anxiety and/or guilt associated with commission of transgressions. the term once popular, was replaced for a time by > sociopathic personality in order to emphasize the social aspects of the disorder. However, since it is clear that the disorder involves much ,ore than a dinimished sense of guilt and is typically accompanied by a variety of related behaviours, all of which have an antisocial quality to them the current term of choice is >antisocial personality disorder.
pp 619
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1166
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 11:52 am: | |
same source
sociopath' one with a sociopathic personality'
sociopathic personality ' a personality disorder characterised by disturbed, maladaptive, social relationships, particularly those that reflect clear antisocial behaviours.'
pp736
antisocial personality disorder 'a personality disorder marked by a history of irresponsible and antisocial behaviour beginning in childhood or early adolescence [...] and continuing to adulthood. Early manifestations include, lying, stealing, fighting, vanadalism, running away from home, and cruelty. In adulthood the general pattern continues, characterised by such factors as unemployment, failures to conform to social norms, property destruction, stealing, failure to honour financial obligations, reckless disregard for one's or others safety, incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, poor parenting, and a consistent disregard for the truth. Also noted as an important feature is glibness accompanied by a lack of remorse and a lack of less ability to feel guilt for one's actions.'
pp44/5
I hope that made sense to someone! or helped!
Jenni
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 325
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 4:57 am: | |
Hi Kris,
The standard official line is kind of along the lines of your summary (matching Jennifer's quotes). Used to be called psychopath, changed to sociopath, now called Anti-Social Personality Disorder. That's the stance of all the official bodies of psychology/psychiatry in the United States.
A variety of problems happened along the way. For one, some people (like Dr. Robert Hare) think the new Antisocial Personality Disorder classification doesn't go far enough, so have been using "psychopath" to mean someone much worse than the standard description. That's also a side effect of the years between the psychopath and sociopath switch over, when the old term sounded harsher so got used for harsher cases.
Another major problem (and I think this led to the original ditching of psychopath as a term) is that people hear "psycho" and think psychotic, which is something else entirely. That may be what your friend was thinking of. Psychotic and psychopathic, despite the similarity in names, are terms that mean vastly different things.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1171
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 6:21 am: | |
Well I'm glad that it made sense to someone. its been a while since i did any psychology!
Jenni
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 450
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 9:11 am: | |
Monty, Jenni, Dan,
Thank you all for your help, I will pass this along to my friend THIS Friday night!
Consider me edified.
-K
Hello Vinny. It's your Uncle Bingo. Time to pay the cheque. |
Jason Scott Mullins
Inspector
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 330
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 12:40 pm: | |
Heer Kris -
In my personal experience, if there is a difference, it would be pyschopaths are almost like a subset of sociopaths. I know, it kinda goes against the grain. Bearing in mind though that this is my personal experience. Since I'm not a doctor, I could be misinterpreting things, actions, motives, etc. So I could always be wrong
The main difference, I think, is that sociopaths can control themselves much better than a pyschopath. Pyschopaths tend to have violent outbursts and also have very irksome and manic behavior (just ask Madame Sarah Long about her friend that would get mad at her mother for "breathing to loudly"). Instead of violent outbursts, I've found that sociopaths will spend as long as it takes (sometimes years) and do whatever it takes to ensure that they destroy every single thing about their selected target until they are bored with them or feel vindicated. There seems to be no personal sacrifice (well perhaps death) that are not willing to take to "right" what they feel are their "wrongs".
So I guess it's best not to piss off a sociopath? :P
crix0r
"I was born alone, I shall die alone. Embrace the emptiness, it is your end." |
Andrew Gable
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 12:13 am: | |
Another similar question -- a psychopath is not necessarily the same as a psychotic, is it? The way I understand is that psychotic is a descriptor for behavior, while psychopath is equated with violence.
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 440
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 2:30 pm: | |
Hi Andrew,
Actually, violence is considered a behavior, so your way doesn't really work out too well.
A quick way to look at it is that it's the difference between being cut off from reality (psychotics are more the stereotypical crazy with delusions and hallucinations) and being cut off from society (psychopaths are the stereotypical evil people who do what they want only for themselves and not for anyone else).
If somebody murders someone else because voices told them that aliens were living in that person's spleen, that's a psychotic killer. If someone kills someone else because it gives a sense of power when the neck snaps and then rifles the body for smokes and valuables, that's psychopathic.
Psychotics can go in and out of their mental problems and sometimes be pretty normal -- medication can help -- and when they aren't in the psychotic state that can be very distraught over what they did. Psychopaths are always the way they are -- there's no known treatment -- and may play at remorsefulness but generally only if they think they can get something out of you if they do.
Oh, and in case you might get the wrong idea from reading about these conditions on a board devoted to discussing famous murders, most psychotics and psychopaths are not killers.
Edited to remove line saying we talked about it above, becasue I see that we didn't. Must have been another thread.
(Message edited by dannorder on December 21, 2004)
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 415
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Checkable Detail: Study books on abnormal psychology. If anyone knows a psychiatrist who would be willing to look at JTR please ask him. Check the Abrams book. I believe Douglas had a degree in psychology. What did his profile say? |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 445
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 8:46 pm: | |
Diana,
I know you are big on this "checkable point" strategy, but this thread isn't advancing any theories, it's just discussing what the terms mean. I don't get why you are even posting that here.
Besides that, the things you mention as checkable points have already been done. There are quotes from psychology texts above in this very thread, as a matter of fact. Your post comes off sounding rather abrupt and misplaced.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 419
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 11:04 am: | |
I was tired. It was late. I was trying to institute a new method for looking at everything. I do tend to go on binges and become annoying. (Wanted to put a smiley here but I have dialup and it was taking forever to load).
Having said that, does anyone have a copy of the DSM-IV? |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
Diana,
Don't be discouraged by what Dan Norder writes. By all means, explore new methods of investigation. Personally, I've enjoyed your posts over the six or seven years. You ask a lot of very pertinent questions and you are to be commended for your insights.
People here tend to react to Dan Norder like he's the Second Coming to Ripperology. By his own admission, he has only been studying the case for a couple of years: he dosen't know very much apart from he's read in a few books. He dosen't engage in first-hand research. There may be a few other posters besides myself who actually agree with your suggested approach. |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 446
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 12:00 pm: | |
Hi Diana,
Don't worry about it. The questions you are asking are worth exploring on the board (and have been to varying degrees in other places), I just don't understand why they popped into this thread.
Also, this is in Pub Talk, where posts get erased without warning after a certain number come in. As Scott for some odd reason has decided to look for drama here, with David Radka probably not far behind, the number of posts could suddenly explode and wipe out the earlier ones. Any serious discussion on these topics should probably go elsewhere.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 198
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 2:37 pm: | |
Diana- DSM IV is a pretty standard reference book and should be available in most public libraries (in the US at least). Or you can find much of the info--including the checlist for psychopathic behavior-- online.
This is a definition of psychosis
"Delusions or hallucinations that cause disorganized thinking, unusual behaviors and loss of touch with reality."
provided by the Mayo Clinic
Mags |
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